Is the Arrowverse slowly dying?
- Thread starter Jayson1
- Start date
I feel like it might be time to take a page from The Grand Tour.
Stop doing all the regular series and replace them with one 8-10 episode "crossover" miniseries a year. They can keep that up indefinitely.
Stop doing all the regular series and replace them with one 8-10 episode "crossover" miniseries a year. They can keep that up indefinitely.
I still enjoy all of the shows, but Supergirl and The Flash are definitely nowhere near as good as they were a few seasons. I still like the characters, and there have been some good individual episodes here and their, but their season arcs the last couple seasons have been a mess. Somebody up thread mentioned shorter season, and I'm wondering if that might help. I think a lot of the problems have come from trying to drag the arcs out longer than the story really should be.
Black Lightning and Legends of Tomorrow are still pretty great though, and Batwoman has gotten off to a really good start.
Overall I'd say the Arrowverse is definitely not as good as it used to be, but I don't think it's anywhere close to dying yet.
Black Lightning and Legends of Tomorrow are still pretty great though, and Batwoman has gotten off to a really good start.
Overall I'd say the Arrowverse is definitely not as good as it used to be, but I don't think it's anywhere close to dying yet.
^ I thought Supergirl's fourth season was great, only the first season offering any competition for the show's best ever. The season that just ended, however, was its worst, misconceived from the start and indifferently executed throughout.
My problem with a lot of the current Arrowverse run is that they prioritize being 'socially conscious' or just telling an interesting story. I'm all for being 'inclusive' but some of it is IMO is sometimes just too overt and they oftentimes don't really work the aspect of a given character to fit the story well - it comes across as shoehorned in because the producers want to make a statement.
^^
Now it's fine to do that once in a while but again, oftentimes they IMO drag it out too long or do it in a way that breaks the rythym/flow of their overarching story/plotline (when they go for a season long related story arc. Both Supergirl and The Flash have been wantonly guilty of this in their later seasons (I never really got into or watched Arrow much during it's run; and LoT is just a a wacky off the wall almost sitcom style comedy of late and they OCCASIONALLY seem to remember those characters have superpowers.)
^^
Now it's fine to do that once in a while but again, oftentimes they IMO drag it out too long or do it in a way that breaks the rythym/flow of their overarching story/plotline (when they go for a season long related story arc. Both Supergirl and The Flash have been wantonly guilty of this in their later seasons (I never really got into or watched Arrow much during it's run; and LoT is just a a wacky off the wall almost sitcom style comedy of late and they OCCASIONALLY seem to remember those characters have superpowers.)
I think Crisis was a missed opportunity to jazz things up more had they capitalized on it. I think they were just thinking fun crossover but it had a lot of potential to have interesting lingering effects. Then again, maybe just the realities of television production only allows for so much shakeup.
Well, with a lot of shows now prematurely coming to their summer hiatus, it's a perfect time for me to start something new. Also hoping that maybe with the whole season now over, Netflix Netherlands might pick up Batwoman.
That downslide started a few years ago; I cannot recall another TV franchise / "universe" where most of its shows are so similar in character tropes / arcs / ideology to the point where its stale, predictable and most of the showrunners seem completely disinterested in taking / being inspired by the best from the source, but were Hell-bent on pouring their weakened spin on existing characters. It is no surprise that the Arrowverse is on the downslide.
I feel close what you are. Arrow was "Batman without being Batman" and The Flash was kind of a positive spin on that. But then tune into Supergirl and it's the same "lead hero who has a team of template characters." Then Batwoman comes out and from the first episode, I can see they are leading to the same thing: geeky ethnic computer guy, a medical person, another complicated love angle....they are the same damned show.
I loved Arrow. That show sucked me into it. The Flash began great but Barry is such a selfish shit and they have this cast that feels like they don't want to be there but at the same time just won't leave. Cisco drops out for a few weeks, comes back and then goes on another trip. Frost drops in and out (granted the actress had a baby), Joe West takes vacations even after promotion to police chief or whatever. Ralph shows up from time to time, and then we get the new characters who are just meh. I am hate-watching Flash because I've spent all this time on it.
Black Lightning I couldn't get into.
Legends is dead to me. What started out as a quest premise about Rip became this f'ked up comedy with a bunch of aholes.
Supergirl: I - hate this show and the characters annoy me more than Harry Kim. Just awful.
Batwoman: I love Ruby Rose and she was the only reason I stuck with it as long as I did. But they seemed more interested in making a statement than making a good Bat-show. I just feel they could make the same point without screaming "look we have LESBAINS!" Why not simply have her be gay without the shouting? Normalize it by treating it as the natural thing it is. Anyway, what drove me away was Alice. She stands out as a weird over the top character in an otherwise grounded world.
Stargirl: I wasn't gonna bother, but I watched the pilot. OMG that was so sweet and charming! What a lovely start. I am won over immediately by Brec Bassinger. The atmosphere was absolutely perfect. That was the way to do it.
You know what I want, though? No more "Batman shows without Batman." I would - LOVE - a weekly series called "Batman Family." Like the 70's book, have it about Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, Batwoman, Alfred, Gordon, everyone! Have Bat-Mite show up! Ace! And you have a rotating stories and larger teamups within the series for sweeps and events. ONE series, multiple heroes and have them alternate. Create a really solid universe, have it fun, exciting and dark. No more "Batman disappeared" BS. No more "I'm the goddamned Batman!" A Batman who is the leader and mentor who strikes fear in the hearts of his nemesis, not his friends. That's what I want.
You probably need HBO Max for that.
If they could do a better DC shared universe there, I'd be very cool with it.
I feel that the title character just gets shortchanged too much.
I'd love to see a Superman series starring Brandon Routh. I'm curious about what happened to his world post Crisis.
I'm always a little shocked when I see people complain about the teams aspects of the Arrowverse shows, it's one of my favorite things about. I've always loved shows with big ensembles, and I've always thought these shows had great casts. I'll admit The Flash's might be getting a bit to big, but I love the Supergirl, Black Lighting, and Batwoman casts. I always find it a bit boring when you only have one or two characters who do everything by themselves.
I like having a ensemble but do think it's valid that maybe we need fewer heroes on the teams. I like how in season 1 of Flash Cisco was the tech guy and Caitlen was the doctor/science person, Wells was mentor/bad guy, Iris was girlfriend/sister and Joe was father figure. Everyone had different roles and contributed in different ways and the action scenes were handled by The Flash.
Jason
Jason
It’s not the idea of the team that bothers me, it’s that they have a template. They’re too similar.
And I do tend to feel that a Kryptonian wouldn’t need a Team Flash/ARGUS style mashup.
I was always more in line with the hero acts alone until he/she needs backup so JLA shows up, or maybe you need a science person to help out. So THEN you go to STAR labs. Barry can’t make a f’n move without his team. At least Oliver had one tech person at HQ and the rest were legit co-heroes covering the city. Barry leans on his team too much for my taste. Supergirl is just too annoying for me to want to know these people but they just feel like the same old.
And I do tend to feel that a Kryptonian wouldn’t need a Team Flash/ARGUS style mashup.
I was always more in line with the hero acts alone until he/she needs backup so JLA shows up, or maybe you need a science person to help out. So THEN you go to STAR labs. Barry can’t make a f’n move without his team. At least Oliver had one tech person at HQ and the rest were legit co-heroes covering the city. Barry leans on his team too much for my taste. Supergirl is just too annoying for me to want to know these people but they just feel like the same old.
This, precisely. Kryptonians are the most powerful beings on the planet. I mean, I guess they might need somebody to hold their beer, but that's about it.
It's not that I mind teams. I just don't like the new team on the Flash. There's no chemistry, no real bond. They're just.....there. Kamilla for example. I don't feel any chemistry between her and CIsco either, and with the rest of the team it's like she just sort of walked in one day and stayed.
With the new team Arrow in season 5, it was different. A new team was needed out of necessity and they didn't even like each other at first. They bond grew over time and started to work.
With the new team Arrow in season 5, it was different. A new team was needed out of necessity and they didn't even like each other at first. They bond grew over time and started to work.
There's no evidence (yet) that here's going to be a 'Team Superman' in Superman & Lois. At least not in the sense that there is/was with Arrow/Flash/Supergirl/Batwoman/Black Lightning.
Superman and Lois are the team. With little super baby, I guess. And maybe Bibbo Bibbowski...
Supersenses.
A "person" in a chair can't tell Clark anything that he can't see through a dozen buildings, or hear from two hundred miles away.
A "person" in a chair can't tell Clark anything that he can't see through a dozen buildings, or hear from two hundred miles away.
I'm really hoping they don't go that route. I think it's hurt Supergirl in some ways, plus as noted, it's such pure formula at this point that a different approach would be fresh and welcome. Superman & Lois should have exactly one costumed hero, the one in the title. He also doesn't need a tech person squawking in his ear all the time -- though I suspect that may unfortunately already be built in, since General Lane's function on the show seems to be to seek Superman's help fighting threats, so I could see him (or some associated character) occupying the ol' earphone.
Similar threads
