Is the Arrowverse slowly dying?

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Jayson1, May 20, 2020.

  1. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Mar 21, 2017
    Am I the only one who is getting the feeling that Arrowverse fatigue has finally arrived? The ratings are down with Supergirl and with Batwoman and now their star just jumped ship. Arrow is gone and The Flash is running out of steam. I think one of the reasons we might be getting a Superman show is they realize they need a big name to make a splash. Legends and Black Lighting are doing well creatively but I think the ratings are bad for those shows even Black Lighting which was kind of shock when I read about it.

  2. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Fleet Admiral Premium Member

    Mar 2, 2003
    San Jose, CA
    I want Flash to end so I can say I'm done with the Arrowverse. I think what hurts it more than anything else is everything (And I only see Flash so I can't really say anything about the others) after Crisis has felt anticlimatic. The shows (Arrow and Flash) are so formulaic that you almost know how each season is going to go after the first few episodes in the fall.

    I was surprised reading the news that Rose quit Batwomen. Actually I'm always wondering if other actors in this franchise have felt the same way on various occasion. It's a job, but once you are in this franchise you are almost beholden to it for the long haul.
  3. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

    Aug 23, 2001
    Nuevo México
    Yes. But I think it's going to be a pretty slow death. with the pandemic on top of everything else and the fact the network doesn't really have anything else, I just don't see it going away completely any time soon.

    That said, I think the entire network is on borrowed time. If the WB streaming service takes off and they can bundle it (or even merge it) with the DC channel, there really won't be a need to continue it much longer. The CW brand will fold and the stations will be sold off to a syndication entity similar to MYTV.
  4. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

    Jul 31, 2002
    I really don't think Crisis is/was the problem. I don't need massive cosmic stakes and a million guest appearances to enjoy a superhero show. I just need fun, interesting characters in fun, interesting stories, preferably with at least one compelling villain in the mix. Indeed out of all the shows, Arrow and Batwoman were the ones I was most entertained by and they arguably have the lowest stakes and scope.

    I think the problem isn't audience fatigue, it's production fatigue.Same thing happened towards the end of DS9 and carried on right through the last few seasons of Voyager and straight into Enterprise. They're digging themselves into a rut.
    Turtletrekker likes this.
  5. Samurai8472

    Samurai8472 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Mar 27, 2007
    I never got into Arrow

    Legends of Tomorrow is too corny for my tastes

    Batwoman- Couldn't get into.

    Supergirl- Once in awhile I take a peek

    I've had the first season of the Flash on blu-ray for awhile. Now with the quarantine i'm finally able to sit down and watch it. It's alright.

    I've seen the crossovers. They seem to always end with a mass of CGI creatures converging on the heroes. The actors just take a swing at bad CGI renders.
  6. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

    Nov 19, 2001
    Western Canada
    Ruby Rose's departure will be a big strike. In the sense that the Arrowverse is past its prime, yes it is on the downswing. If Superman can break out of the formula and do something original and exciting or if the Supergirl/Flash writers can get back on track next year then things could turn around--otherwise I don't think there are many more years left.
  7. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Aug 21, 2011
    The Black Country, England
    I've tried several times to get into the DC TV shows, most recently in the run up to Crisis, which intrigued me as a comics fan.

    It was another failed attempt - there's not one of the shows that works for me. They just come across as cheap and cheesy for the most part, and Arrow just bores me to tears.

    It's sad, but I'm really surprised these shows have lasted as long as they have.
  8. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Mar 21, 2017
    I wonder if Ruby Rose leaving is in part due to some cost cutting. We lost Brandon Routh this year as well which I really think was a cost cutting move. The ratings weren't so great so I would not be shocked if she was gently pushed out so they could get a more salary friendly Batwoman on the show. All these shows should really cut back to like 13 episodes to try and keep that fatigue from getting worst but I don't think they will.

  9. N-121973

    N-121973 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jan 9, 2005
    Great Britain
    I wonder if her departure is due to the back problems she had.
  10. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Mar 21, 2017
    They say that isn't the case but you never can be sure. That would be a issue when it comes to stunts.

  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Apr 15, 2000
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Promoting from inside?


    Mary is her middle name, and Jacob adopts her, even though he probably did that years ago, when she was a child. Parental rights. We have Cassandra Cain... Kassandra Kane, who was Batgirl in the early 2000s. Asian Batwoman. 30 Diversity Points.


    Black Lesbian Batwoman. 50 diversity points.


    Kate dies, and Alice feels so bad, about the blood on her hands, that she takes up the cowl. 0 Diversity points.

    Vesper Fairchild.

    A million Diversity Points.

    Young Kate from the flashbacks.

    A million irony points for casting a literal girl as Batwoman.


    A Pennyworth takes over. 200 class-warfare points.


    This will start a new sisterly story about opposing sibs, with Magpie. 400 retread points.
  12. Kai "the spy"

    Kai "the spy" Vice Admiral Admiral

    Feb 7, 2011
    I'm right here.
    While letting Routh go was most certainly a cost cutting measure (or rather cost managing), especially as new characters and actors keep coming in, I do not believe Rose leaving has anything to do with budget. If they wanted an actress with a lower salary, they wouldn't have chosen Rose in the first place. Any good publicity about casting an actress from big action movies has now been negated by the bad publicity that follows with her leaving. I'm inclined to agree with Zack Stentz reasoning, Rose is a movie actress, and the shooting schedules of network television is a lot more demanding than movies. Especially for the star of such a show.

    I do agree about shorter seasons, though. Aside from audience fatigue, it would probably also be beneficial to the quality of the episodes.
  13. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Admiral

    Nov 7, 2004
    Mannheim, Germany
    Surprised to hear that Rose is leaving, that can't bode well for Batwoman which was touted as the hot new Arrowverse show you have to see (and i tuned out after the Pilot).

    Let's be frank - the Arrowverse shows were always hampered by having to deal with a modest TV budget, it just can't compete with the movies (either DC or Marvel) that invest many times that for a single movie that an Arrowverse season costs.

    Despite that they managed quite well for a time mainly due to the strength and chemistry of the cast in each show rather than having very high production values or actors who actually know how to fight/have a top fight choreographer (one of my pet peeves).

    I left Arrow somewhere season 5 i think, Flash was absolutely brilliant in its first season (the season finale almost made me cry) but that went downhill too season after season (stopped midway season 4) and Legends, after a bit of initial aimlessness, has embraced its camp and is just having fun with the premise and the characters but is its own thing mostly separated from everybody else.

    Maybe the order from high on to keep certain characters out (Batman for example until his introduction in Crisis and from what i read an Impostor is introduced currently in Batwoman) has held them back creatively but every show has declined in story quality from season to season until they are just going through the motions i feel and that can't go on forever.

    It's maybe too soon to call the Arrowverse done but i don't see any show in the pipeline that might keep it going. Arrow is done, Flash is somewhere in the middle/closing to the end but surely won't go on for more than 2 or 3 seasons, Batwoman has a major problem with the lead actress leaving and i don't know where Legends stands currently but in a few seasons it also will end.
    What will come after this? I believe they are working on Arrow 2.0 or something like this with their future offspring from the original cast getting their own show but once they start the older shows will be close to ending and i don't know if they can carry the torch on their own.
  14. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Mar 15, 2017
    I think it's a fair statement. It's not what it was in its hey day. The writing is not as strong.

    Arrow is done.

    The Flash suddenly expanded its cast to include a bunch of new people. Do we need Cisco's girlfriend or Allegra? Why are they on The Flash? Why do they get screen time over Barry? The title character needs more to do.

    Legends is meh. The only characters worth watching are Sara and Mick. I also like Zari 2.0, but the better characters are gone.

    Batwoman is the first show that I had absolutely zero interest in watching. The trailers looked absolutely awful, the description looked awful, and I had no problem passing on it.

    Supergirl is a shell of what it once was--all due to bad writing.

    It's tired.

    The hope for the future is Superman and Lois, but I'm not sure they can pull it off. Maybe away from the Supergirl writers, Superman can be written better, but I don't know.

    Meanwhile, Stargirl was terrific last night. I don't think it's fatigue--I think it's writing.
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  15. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Nov 5, 2008
    King Daniel Beyond
    Nothing lasts forever. After Endgame, my interest in Marvel films has gone from MUST SEE to MEH... not because Endgame was bad, but because it was a massive climax and I've blown my emotional load on that world. I imagine the Crisis had a similar effect on the Arrowverse.

    Which, when it finally ends, I'll spend a fortune on all the DVDs and watch the whole lot.
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  16. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Mar 21, 2017
    When it comes to production values I think it simply came down to the fact that you could get away with that with Arrow when they started. A grounded hero were your not dealing with people with superpowers. Once they started bringing in and using characters with powers the budgets simply couldn't support them after awhile especially when actors salaries started to also go up and maybe with so many shows some of the resources have to be shared.

  17. Morpheus 02

    Morpheus 02 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Feb 3, 2003
    Chicago IL
    for me...the problem is oversaturation of TV mixed with lack of coordination with the movies mixed with a wild bag with the movies. (And not including animated movies)

    With the CW I would have gone with 2 ...maaaaaybe 3 shows , with 3 "seasons" per year... Fall, Winter-Spring AND Spring-summer.

    DC universe was a mess and unneeded (especially Titans...adding yet another Batman).

    It is just to much at one-time and spreads DC fans waaaay too thin to be a catalyst for excitement
  18. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Mar 15, 2017
    I never believed in oversaturation. If the writing is good, it doesn't matter how many shows there are.

    They made the same argument with Star Trek, but by the time Voyager started, it was the same tired writers doing tired stories that were copies of copies of copies.

    There are like 500 Law and Order shows and they do well.
  19. Mage

    Mage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jun 17, 2007
    Arrow was and still is one of my favorite shows ever, and I accept all the flaws it has. Seasons 6 and 7 were not my that easy to watch, but still had characters I cared for.
    Flash was awesome when it began, I now only watch it because I feel I have to.
    Supergirl..... I started watching Supergirl right after what was basically my divorce (even though we weren't married, after 11 years it felt like it) and it got me through some tough times. I adored the characters, and the plot and themes. Now, the show just tries to hard to be legit and forgot how awesome the characters were.
    Legends....... Legends is that cool cousin that, after a few years you realize is actually really weird.....But not in a harmful way and some of the stuff he says really makes sense. So you still hang around and enjoy his goofy antics.
    Still need to see Black Lightning.
    Batwoman isn't aired or streamed anywhere here, so can't comment.

    Really...... Crisis f***ed up so much. First three episodes were pretty damned cool. And then they didn't just drop the ball. They completely forgot they ever frigging had one. And then spend the rest of the seasons of the shows I still watch trying to figure out what they were trying to do before Crisis AND trying to end stuff in a logical way during COVID (don't blame them for the last part).

    Is the Arrowverse dying? No. Has it lost its way? Very much so.
  20. The Realist

    The Realist Vice Admiral Admiral

    Apr 4, 2001
    ^ You really do need to see Black Lightning. Seriously. I actually remember when you got on board with Supergirl, and how much you loved it, and how cool it was to see somebody freshly discovering what was already my favorite show. Well, BL is every bit as good as Sg when the latter is at its very best, plus its quality is more consistent. It's also showing no signs of the creative fatigue most of the other Arrowverse shows are.