Is Star Trek 2009 overhyped by desesperate Trek fans?

[TheGodBen]

It's fine if you didn't believe these things even though they happened to be in-character and easily explainable from context.

Only if the characters were supposed to be stupid, and you'll have to forgive me for being an "elitist" but I prefer it when my heroes are intelligent and do smart things.

Kirk's never been one to sit tight and wait for rescue when ordered to.

That does not excuse stupidity. I'm sorry, but when you are trapped on a frozen planet and you are warned of extreme danger outside you should not go outside. Kirk deserved to be eaten alive by that monster and that should have been the end of the movie. Stupidity leads to death; now there's a message I can get behind.

And presumably Pike's been keeping an eye on Kirk for his three Academy years and knows what the guy is capable of -- hell, he probably spent three years regretting that dare because of how much trouble Kirk is.

And that justifies promoting a cadet who was removed from active service and illegally stowed away on the the military flagship to first officer? Can you name precedent in the real world of anybody doing something as moronic as that? Pike is as stupid as Kirk, it's another case of the shouldadieds.

Your suspension of disbelief is broken, you should probably get it looked at.

On the contrary my suspension of disbelief meter is working perfectly, that's why I don't complain about the red matter, and my bullshit meter is finely tuned. I think you'll need to go get your bullshit meter checked because you seem to have bought a boat-load of it.

Every time I see someone write "turn off my/your brain" they seem to go on to harp on points of unrealism (you know, the stuff that demands suspension of disbelief) about the film like those above, which don't even really demand all that much suspension.

We've already been through this, suspension of disbelief != turn off brain.

 

[Neeka Keet]

Wait, wait, wait. You're expecting James Kirk to stay in the pod and wait for rescue that may never come. From being familiar with the character, that doesn't seem like something he'd do.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Wait, wait, wait. You're expecting James Kirk to stay in the pod and wait for rescue that may never come. From being familiar with the character, that doesn't seem like something he'd do.

I'm pretty sure the escape pod computer provided automated instructions for the occupant, in this case Kirk, to remain inside the pod and await retrieval. So I'm sure there would be someone coming to retrieve him. Kirk took it upon himself to leave it.

 

[Amaris]

Right and wrong are absolute. Like the Federation. Like Root Beer. Like me. And like you. How many of us on one side or the other is irrelevant. I will speak my mind whether I am alone or not.

I hate the new film. It's not Star Trek. It is rubbish. I am right. You are wrong.

You are relative. Your answers are no more right or wrong than someone's favorite flavor. You can live inside of your own perceptions and disregard those you disagree with, but that does not make you right or wrong. Your statements are not of fact, only opinion. Enjoy the reality of your own making, because it does not extend outside of your point of view.


J.

 

[M'Sharak]

Right and wrong are absolute. Like the Federation. Like Root Beer. Like me. And like you. How many of us on one side or the other is irrelevant. I will speak my mind whether I am alone or not.

I hate the new film. It's not Star Trek. It is rubbish. I am right. You are wrong.

You are relative. Your answers are no more right or wrong than someone's favorite flavor. You can live inside of your own perceptions and disregard those you disagree with, but that does not make you right or wrong. Your statements are not of fact, only opinion. Enjoy the reality of your own making, because it does not extend outside of your point of view.


J.

We're getting away from the topic, though.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I don't quite understand why people who are fans of the film are so defensive when someone comes in and points out shortcomings in the film and challenge its merits.

This is afterall a discussion board where presumably individuals come to be exposed to a variety of ideas and opinions. If you agree with it, fine. If you don't cool. But if it really bothers you it is probably best to simply avoid the internet and discussion boards so one can continue to not have their bubble busted about the quality of the film.

 

[theFirebottle]

We've already been through this, suspension of disbelief != turn off brain.

Yesssss, that's what I'm arguing. I'm not the one who's bloody conflating the two things! It's the [expletive deleted] who keep blithering about plot holes who are doing so!

I don't have to turn off my brain to believe that a genius, even one from the 20th century, can't conceive of three-dimensional combat in space as Khan couldn't in TWOK. I'm a desk jockey academic and I have precious little knowledge of warfare and battle, but even I'm not dumb enough to fall for Kirk's "clever trick". I suspend my disbelief and move on while enjoying a good adventure story with a tragic ending.

I don't have to turn off my brain to believe that Kirk, known hot-head and Grand Master of It-Sounded-Like-A-Good-Idea-At-The-Time, would go venture out into a hostile environment because he would never dream of sitting tight and waiting for rescue. Is it idiocy? Yes. Is it idiocy that's perfectly in character for Kirk? Yes. Prime Kirk has pulled off some ludicrous stunts and gotten away with not being called a blazing idiot only because he succeeded. It looks like this Kirk is much the same. Frankly, I didn't have to suspend my disbelief at all there. It would have been an insane stretch to have him poke some buttons futilely, say "Oh well, I wouldn't want to go out and freeze to death," and wait patiently.

 

[theFirebottle]

As to why I keep hammering away at these arguments... well, I think I mentioned before how little else I have to do given that my friends all went home for the summer. If you'd rather I took up knitting or something, I've got a paypal account ready and waiting for your charitable donations in the interest of getting me off your case...

Also.

 

[Kosh Naranek]

I don't think fans have "over-hyped" it. Some love it. Some hate it, and some, like me, fall into the middle.

Heaven knows my ranting and raving about the other films did not get backsides into the seats next to me. (Well, I dragged five people to Insurrection because it was close to my birthday. They have never let me forget it. )

The marketing of the new film made my friends and family take notice. I took four people with me the first time I saw it, and they loved it. The second go round I had six people with me (three repeat viewers and the only other Trekkie in the family). They loved it.

In fact, I would say that I was the most critical of the bunch.

 

[Aragorn]

Right and wrong are absolute. Like the Federation. Like Root Beer. Like me. And like you. How many of us on one side or the other is irrelevant. I will speak my mind whether I am alone or not.

I hate the new film. It's not Star Trek. It is rubbish. I am right. You are wrong.

You are relative. Your answers are no more right or wrong than someone's favorite flavor. You can live inside of your own perceptions and disregard those you disagree with, but that does not make you right or wrong. Your statements are not of fact, only opinion. Enjoy the reality of your own making, because it does not extend outside of your point of view.


J.

You know, you do have to give smosquito credit for ONE THING -- for saying exactly what almost everyone here who is against this movie (not named Gep Malakai) already believes.

 

[RobertScorpio]

It's fine if you didn't believe these things even though they happened to be in-character and easily explainable from context.

Only if the characters were supposed to be stupid, and you'll have to forgive me for being an "elitist" but I prefer it when my heroes are intelligent and do smart things.

Kirk's never been one to sit tight and wait for rescue when ordered to.

That does not excuse stupidity. I'm sorry, but when you are trapped on a frozen planet and you are warned of extreme danger outside you should not go outside. Kirk deserved to be eaten alive by that monster and that should have been the end of the movie. Stupidity leads to death; now there's a message I can get behind.


And that justifies promoting a cadet who was removed from active service and illegally stowed away on the the military flagship to first officer? Can you name precedent in the real world of anybody doing something as moronic as that? Pike is as stupid as Kirk, it's another case of the shouldadieds.

Your suspension of disbelief is broken, you should probably get it looked at.

On the contrary my suspension of disbelief meter is working perfectly, that's why I don't complain about the red matter, and my bullshit meter is finely tuned. I think you'll need to go get your bullshit meter checked because you seem to have bought a boat-load of it.

Every time I see someone write "turn off my/your brain" they seem to go on to harp on points of unrealism (you know, the stuff that demands suspension of disbelief) about the film like those above, which don't even really demand all that much suspension.

We've already been through this, suspension of disbelief != turn off brain.

When you lose your your virginity let us know...in about 40 years when it happens

Rob

 

[Devon]

We've already been through this, suspension of disbelief != turn off brain.

Most of Star Trek asks you to suspend your belief, so if that's your little spin on it, then you're on record saying so!

 

[TheGodBen]

Yesssss, that's what I'm arguing. I'm not the one who's bloody conflating the two things! It's the [expletive deleted] who keep blithering about plot holes who are doing so!

I'm not mixing them up, I'm saying that suspension of disbelief is not a subset of turning off your brain, suspension of disbelief means accepting certain things about the way the fictional universe works. I don't remember if it was you that made the claim, but somebody earlier in this thread did and that is what I am arguing against.

I don't have to turn off my brain to believe that Kirk, known hot-head and Grand Master of It-Sounded-Like-A-Good-Idea-At-The-Time, would go venture out into a hostile environment because he would never dream of sitting tight and waiting for rescue. Is it idiocy? Yes. Is it idiocy that's perfectly in character for Kirk? Yes. Prime Kirk has pulled off some ludicrous stunts and gotten away with not being called a blazing idiot only because he succeeded. It looks like this Kirk is much the same.

And here is where you fundamentally misunderstand me because I think that Kirk Prime was, to quote John Locke, a piss-poor captain. Now I liked the guy because he had a charm about him that was impossible to resist, but numerous times in TOS I felt he made such ridiculous mistakes that he should have been stripped of his command. I have no illusions that Kirk Prime was a great captain and I'm not going to forgive this new character because he has the same faults as the old one.

As to why I keep hammering away at these arguments... well, I think I mentioned before how little else I have to do given that my friends all went home for the summer. If you'd rather I took up knitting or something, I've got a paypal account ready and waiting for your charitable donations in the interest of getting me off your case...

You misunderstand me again, I have no desire to silence you or any wish for you to go away, I'm enjoying our discussion. This is a discussion board after all, I don't expect us to agree but that doesn't mean I don't find merit in the act of debating and expressing our opinions.

So, no money for you!

When you lose your your virginity let us know...in about 40 years when it happens

See Rob, I don't jump into discussions purely to hurl a denigrating remark at somebody I disagree with, because I understand something called the "social graces". If anyone here needs help in socialising in order to lose their virginity... lets just say that it is not me.

Most of Star Trek asks you to suspend your belief, so if that's your little spin on it, then you're on record saying so!

Please read what I already said in this thread because I have already said I have no problem with suspension of disbelief, my problem is when the characters do stupid things to further the plot.

 

[M'Sharak]

I don't quite understand why people who are fans of the film are so defensive when someone comes in and points out shortcomings in the film and challenge its merits.

This is afterall a discussion board where presumably individuals come to be exposed to a variety of ideas and opinions. If you agree with it, fine. If you don't cool. But if it really bothers you it is probably best to simply avoid the internet and discussion boards so one can continue to not have their bubble busted about the quality of the film.

Plenty of people have been pointing out shortcomings in the film, both prior to and subsequent to its release. There's nothing wrong with that, and most criticism is accepted as long as it's given in civil fashion. The ones more likely to provoke a defensive response do so not because of the criticisms they make (or not usually, anyway) but because of the manner in which they do so.

We've got room for all sorts of opinions here, and most people are quite willing to grant that no one else is required to hold the same opinion they themselves express.


This, however:

...

...

When you lose your your virginity let us know...in about 40 years when it happens

Rob

...is just plain trolling. Rob, you've got a warning; that kind of personal attack is neither wanted nor needed.

 

[theFirebottle]

Plenty of people have been pointing out shortcomings in the film, both prior to and subsequent to its release. There's nothing wrong with that, and most criticism is accepted as long as it's given in civil fashion.

I care precious little about civility when an opinion is offered, I only demand that it be backed up by evidence and reasoning. That's why I get so riled up in these threads, because the reasoning is often so shallow and so many of the opinions are supported only by accusations aimed at the people who liked the film that they were distracted by the explosions and shiny effects and somehow missed how awful the film was underneath the summer blockbuster glitz. The Stop-Having-Fun-Guys seem to be on a crusade to ruin the movie for as many people as they can bash with their Keyboards Of Truth.

And here is where you fundamentally misunderstand me because I think that Kirk Prime was, to quote John Locke, a piss-poor captain. Now I liked the guy because he had a charm about him that was impossible to resist, but numerous times in TOS I felt he made such ridiculous mistakes that he should have been stripped of his command. I have no illusions that Kirk Prime was a great captain and I'm not going to forgive this new character because he has the same faults as the old one.

Well, now. That makes this whole leg of the debate make a great deal more sense to me! On some level, at least... I can't really argue with that. You realize, though, that the fanboys would be howling even louder if Abrams et al had given us a prudent, rule-following James T. Kirk? I mean, if registry numbers constitute canon violation... god help us all.

 

[M'Sharak]

Plenty of people have been pointing out shortcomings in the film, both prior to and subsequent to its release. There's nothing wrong with that, and most criticism is accepted as long as it's given in civil fashion.

I care precious little about civility when an opinion is offered,

But I do care.

I only demand that it be backed up by evidence and reasoning.

That's a reasonable enough thing to expect.

That's why I get so riled up in these threads, because the reasoning is often so shallow and so many of the opinions are supported only by accusations aimed at the people who liked the film that they were distracted by the explosions and shiny effects and somehow missed how awful the film was underneath the summer blockbuster glitz. The Stop-Having-Fun-Guys seem to be on a crusade to ruin the movie for as many people as they can bash with their Keyboards Of Truth.

If the reasoning is shallow or nonexistent, then the opinion it supports may be dismissed or discounted on those grounds. Ditto, the accusations of distraction by shiny things. The "Stop-Having-Fun-Guys" can only ruin the movie for people who take what they say seriously; you are not required to play along, and getting riled is exactly the reaction you don't want to give. Accept and respond to valid and reasoned criticism as you see fit and just let the other stuff go right on by, untouched.

 

[VulcanJedi]

Dune buggies indeed...

While I disagree with Vagando's post and find it needlessly offensive, I consider the monster chase to be a far more worthless piece of action time-wasting than Nemesis's ridiculous dune buggy chase.

I disagree with that. If I wanted to see a dune buggy chase I'd watch CHiPS.

Star Trek means strange red alien eats furry yak spider.

 

[TheGodBen]

You realize, though, that the fanboys would be howling even louder if Abrams et al had given us a prudent, rule-following James T. Kirk? I mean, if registry numbers constitute canon violation... god help us all.

Yeah, it's a catch-22 situation for the writers. I'm not too bothered about if Kirk felt like the Kirk of old (who I did like despite how I think he performed as a captain), I didn't think that Spock felt like the Spock I knew but I still think his character was the best thing about the movie.

Star Trek means strange red alien eats furry yak spider.

Since when? I'm trying to think of an episode of Trek which involved a big monster trying to eat people and all I can come up with is the land eel in Voyager's Basics. Besides, in Star Trek the monster would probably end up being misunderstood and they would invite him around for tea at the end.

 

[Gepard]

I am right. You are wrong.

You know, you do have to give smosquito credit for ONE THING -- for saying exactly what almost everyone here who is against this movie (not named Gep Malakai) already believes.

Hey, I believe that too. I'm just not stupid enough to say it.

 

[Balrog]

I don't think fans have "over-hyped" it. Some love it. Some hate it, and some, like me, fall into the middle.

Correction: MOST liked it or loved it. A small yet vocal minority didn't.