Is it okay for people to live together before getting married?

[Praxius]

Query: Is a married person having a fling on the side more committed to their spouse than the 35-year old couple who have been living together for the past 9 years?

changed it because women cheat as much as men do.

Can I get a witness?

Hell Yeah! *points to himself as a guy who was cheated on and who never cheated on anybody in his life*

For me it is the married person because they have still committed to the other person. The couple living together or just a couple living together.

They're not all that "commited" to one another if they go behind their partner's back for some sex. If they're aware of this in their marriage and yet do nothing about it except let it go on and perhaps get worse, then they're living a sham and have no commitment to each other except for the appearance of being commited to one another in everybody else's eyes who don't know what's truly going on.

In that sense, the couple who are not married but have remained loyal to one another for a number of years are indeed (at least in my eyes) more committed and loyal to one another compared to the married couple who tarnish their marriage by going around each others' back to screw other people. I see no logic in thinking otherwise.

Someone who is married, who knows or found out one way or another that their spouse is cheating on them, and does nothing about it except keep the status quo, isn't committed..... they're just a p*ssy-whipped schmuck who doesn't have a backbone to stand up for themselves anymore. (Reverse gender and genitalia-whip comments for those who it applies to)

 

[iguana_tonante]

As for as being offensive, I can only say that some women are offended by things other women are not. I generally go by the 50/50 rule.

And somehow because not everyone is offended this make it ok? Some people are not offended by racist epithets, should be start using them, too?

But even so, I don't see that I made any sweeping generalizations - I in fact tried very hard not to make any, although I concede that sweeping generalizations are, indeed, being made. But not by meeeee!

Well, that's the problem about generalizations: as soon as one participant start making it, nobody can escape them, even if only to refute them or . Oh well.

Not long after my OH and I moved in together a friend asked me if I'd been practicing my signature with the OHs surname. I said no, she didn't believe me. Are there honestly people that desperate to be married that they do these things?

Actually, there is also the issue of women changing last name after being married...

 

[JustKate]

But even so, I don't see that I made any sweeping generalizations - I in fact tried very hard not to make any, although I concede that sweeping generalizations are, indeed, being made. But not by meeeee!

Well, that's the problem about generalizations: as soon as one participant start making it, nobody can escape them, even if only to refute them or . Oh well.

Generalization escallation? Could be. Oh well!

Not long after my OH and I moved in together a friend asked me if I'd been practicing my signature with the OHs surname. I said no, she didn't believe me. Are there honestly people that desperate to be married that they do these things?

Actually, there is also the issue of women changing last name after being married...

Practicing with one's hoped-for name is (or was) supposedly very common for girls - I don't know about women. I never did this (nor did I dream about my wedding, nor did my sisters, nor did my mother, nor did I play wedding with my dolls, all of which is also totally normal, apparently), but I understand it's quite common - lots of my girlfriends did. I wouldn't call it "desperation" - it always seemed to me to be just a game, based on the indisputable oddness of trying to imagine yourself with an entirely new last name.

(Assuming you take an entirely new last name, which of course not everybody does, but no, Iguana_tonante, you are not going to get me sidetracked onto that. We had a big ol' thread on that not too long ago, didn't we?)

 

[Galactus]

As for as being offensive, I can only say that some women are offended by things other women are not. I generally go by the 50/50 rule.

And somehow because not everyone is offended this make it ok? Some people are not offended by racist epithets, should be start using them, too?

What if only a small number of people are offended and the majority are ok with it? What does one do then?

And yes women do plan and dream about their weddings. Maybe it is because I am in the US, but it seems like a lot of you just live in a different world than the rest of society.

 

[JustKate]

And yes women do plan and dream about their weddings. Maybe it is because I am in the US, but it seems like a lot of you just live in a different world than the rest of society.

Oh, yes, they definitely do. I know I am quite atypical in this matter, because most of my girlfriends surely did. There is an entire gigantic and worldwide industry devoted to giving women the wedding of their dreams: books, magazines, bridal fashion shows, reality TV shows that revolve around weddings, caterers, photographers, wedding planners, etc., etc., etc. That's proof right there, I'd say.

 

[John Picard]

And yes women do plan and dream about their weddings. Maybe it is because I am in the US, but it seems like a lot of you just live in a different world than the rest of society.

Oh, yes, they definitely do. I know I am quite atypical in this matter, because most of my girlfriends surely did. There is an entire gigantic and worldwide industry devoted to giving women the wedding of their dreams: books, magazines, bridal fashion shows, reality TV shows that revolve around weddings, caterers, photographers, wedding planners, etc., etc., etc. That's proof right there, I'd say.

And hence the creation of Bridezilla.

 

[JustKate]

^ Dear God, yes.

That's a hilarious, yet somehow depressing, site. And having photographed a few (but only a few, thank God) weddings, I can confirm that some women do get a bit...odd on their wedding day, but usually their mothers are even odder. Edit: make that, "Usually their mothers are even worse."

 

[nevermore]

As for as being offensive, I can only say that some women are offended by things other women are not. I generally go by the 50/50 rule.

And somehow because not everyone is offended this make it ok? Some people are not offended by racist epithets, should be start using them, too?

What if only a small number of people are offended and the majority are ok with it? What does one do then?

Trying not to be an offensive ass in the first place is generally a good jumping off point. If one must be an offensive ass, then I say really commit to it, go whole-hog, try to offend everyone.

Now, you've made some headway here, but to reach that goal, you're probably going to have to go further than simply referring to women as merchandise and/or chattel, because at this point you've missed out offending misogynists, probably some old people and members of particularly medieval religious sects. It has been a promising start though, so best of luck in your future endeavors.

 

[Count Zero]

Yes, it most certainly is ok. People should be free to do whatever they want to (within reason ).
I've never met anyone who didn't first live together with whom they later married. It's the norm here.

I grew up in Germany (first East Berlin, then Munich).

I'm an atheist (formally still Lutheran, used to be quite religious as a teenager).

 

[Kirk's_Tights]

After reading some of the responses, it's pretty clear some of you have never even been in any kind of serious relationship but still feel the need to put down people who have been. -sigh-....

I really don't understand why anyone, especially a woman, would just live with someone before getting married. Seems to me all you are doing is waiting for a better opportunity to come along. If you think divorce rates are high, what do you think just living together and breaking up rates are. It has been said many times, but I will say it again. Who is going to buy a cow if you are already getting the milk for free?

Oh man, thank goodness you said this hiding behind a computer.

This is not my situation I am speaking of but some people don't feel a need to get married. Look at Kurt Russell and Goldie Hawn. They were never married and they've been together as long as I've been alive. Relationships don't have to work based on getting married. There is NO difference between people living together and acting like a married couple anyways and living together, acting like a married couple and having a certificate that says you're a married couple.

I find it highly disgusting that you assume people who just live together are waiting for something 'better'. Not all of us are POS cheaters or just use someone until a better chance comes along and, being in the group who isn't married officially and lives with someone, I'm rather offended that anyone would have the intelligence (or lack of) to assume that is my purpose and the purpose of everyone else who is in this same situation. There are MANY circumstances in which a couple don't get married. Money can be a huge factor. It can be very expensive to get married.

edit:
Maybe I am missing something, but how much time are you spending with this person before you are married. I am seeing people talk about learning their habits, behavior, etc. Are you not doing that while you are dating? I will also say this living together is not the same thing as being married, if it was then you would not be willing to do one and not the other. Also how many of you actually think of marriage as a life long commitment. I am sure you would get a divorce in a heartbeat if you became unhappy.

Fail.

Living together IS the same as getting married. How do you not know this? Tuesday, you're a non-married couple living together, you get married Tuesday night, you wake up the next day and still live together as a married couple. You still do the same things you do every single other day. The only difference is that your union is official by paper.

I worked with my husband from 2002-2009. We were in the same department and on the same shift up until 2006. I went to another department but still saw him at work. All day at work, all day at home, and? Life would have been no different if we were married. We'd still wake up, eat breakfast, go to work, come home, eat dinner, watch TV, it's the same. You don't suddenly become a whole different person. You are still you. You still do the things you do normally.

You make absolutely NO sense at all. You have this stupid thinking that people don't get married because they want someone better to come along. That right there shows how 'intelligent' you are.

If you are in a relationship right now, I feel sorry for her and any future relationships you get into.

 

[John Picard]

After reading some of the responses, it's pretty clear some of you have never even been in any kind of serious relationship but still feel the need to put down people who have been. -sigh-....

I really don't understand why anyone, especially a woman, would just live with someone before getting married. Seems to me all you are doing is waiting for a better opportunity to come along. If you think divorce rates are high, what do you think just living together and breaking up rates are. It has been said many times, but I will say it again. Who is going to buy a cow if you are already getting the milk for free?

Oh man, thank goodness you said this hiding behind a computer.

This is not my situation I am speaking of but some people don't feel a need to get married. Look at Kurt Russell and Goldie Hawn. They were never married and they've been together as long as I've been alive. Relationships don't have to work based on getting married. There is NO difference between people living together and acting like a married couple anyways and living together, acting like a married couple and having a certificate that says you're a married couple.

I find it highly disgusting that you assume people who just live together are waiting for something 'better'. Not all of us are POS cheaters or just use someone until a better chance comes along and, being in the group who isn't married officially and lives with someone, I'm rather offended that anyone would have the intelligence (or lack of) to assume that is my purpose and the purpose of everyone else who is in this same situation. There are MANY circumstances in which a couple don't get married. Money can be a huge factor. It can be very expensive to get married.

edit:
Maybe I am missing something, but how much time are you spending with this person before you are married. I am seeing people talk about learning their habits, behavior, etc. Are you not doing that while you are dating? I will also say this living together is not the same thing as being married, if it was then you would not be willing to do one and not the other. Also how many of you actually think of marriage as a life long commitment. I am sure you would get a divorce in a heartbeat if you became unhappy.

Fail.

Living together IS the same as getting married. How do you not know this? Tuesday, you're a non-married couple living together, you get married Tuesday night, you wake up the next day and still live together as a married couple. You still do the same things you do every single other day. The only difference is that your union is official by paper.

I worked with my husband from 2002-2009. We were in the same department and on the same shift up until 2006. I went to another department but still saw him at work. All day at work, all day at home, and? Life would have been no different if we were married. We'd still wake up, eat breakfast, go to work, come home, eat dinner, watch TV, it's the same. You don't suddenly become a whole different person. You are still you. You still do the things you do normally.

You make absolutely NO sense at all. You have this stupid thinking that people don't get married because they want someone better to come along. That right there shows how 'intelligent' you are.

If you are in a relationship right now, I feel sorry for her and any future relationships you get into.

Very well stated. I might comment that Galactus doesn't have the understanding of the US that he *thinks* he has when lecturing non-US members about the thoughts/directions in this country.

 

[Galactus]

Ok so let me get this straight. Since living together is the exact same thing as getting married, why are some of the same people saying this in favor of gay marriage. I mean if it is the exact same thing what is all the fuss about.

And for the record, I have been married for a very long time. Wife thinks even more strongly about this than I do. So does ever single woman I know. As I said before they think any woman that would just live with a man and not get married is a @#$%! idiot as my wife and good female friend just told me.

I can't speak for the rest of the world, but it is completely insane and irresponsible in our society to not get married to someone you are suppose to care about SS benefits and the ability to make life decisions alone should be more than enough motivation for you. If you are ok with getting a Drivers license then you should be ok getting a marriage license. It is a little piece of paper that carries a lot of weight and only cost $30 -$60, which is the cost of a video game and ISP service for a couple of months.

 

[Pingfah]

Ok so let me get this straight. Since living together is the exact same thing as getting married, why are some of the same people saying this in favor of gay marriage. I mean if it is the exact same thing what is all the fuss about.

You really can't understand the difference between believing people should be allowed to do something, and wanting to do it yourself?

Really?

Ok then.

 

[JustKate]

Living together IS the same as getting married. How do you not know this? Tuesday, you're a non-married couple living together, you get married Tuesday night, you wake up the next day and still live together as a married couple. You still do the same things you do every single other day. The only difference is that your union is official by paper.

I worked with my husband from 2002-2009. We were in the same department and on the same shift up until 2006. I went to another department but still saw him at work. All day at work, all day at home, and? Life would have been no different if we were married. We'd still wake up, eat breakfast, go to work, come home, eat dinner, watch TV, it's the same. You don't suddenly become a whole different person. You are still you. You still do the things you do normally.

Very well stated. I might comment that Galactus doesn't have the understanding of the US that he *thinks* he has when lecturing non-US members about the thoughts/directions in this country.

So...it's the same for you. Does that mean it's the same for everybody? For most people?

No. Not necessarily. Why are you assuming that it is?

I admit that I have no hard data that says, "The majority of married people who lived together before they got married say that being married is considerably different than not being married." I am actually pretty sure that if there is any survey data available on this subject, that data would show that most people who have experienced both would agree. But as I said, I don't have the data now and I don't have time to look for because I am on deadline.

However, you don't have any data either. We are all of us generalizing based on our own personal experience. I am not saying that personal experience has no validity here, because it does, but if your personal experience is applicable, so is mine. So is Galactus'. Right?

And all I'm asking you to consider is that perhaps, just perhaps, the fact that it is exactly the same for you doesn't necessarily mean that it's exactly the same for everybody. You are talking as though it is, and you know, you really shouldn't.

What I think is different - what was different for me - is the commitment level. I am basing this on my personal experience and that of other people I've discussed this with, just as you based your conclusion on personal experience (and presumably that of other people you've discussed this with).

It's different living with someone you intend to stay with the rest of your life than it is living with someone when what you're doing is finding out what that person is like to live with. Now, even though I've said this before, I'm going to say this again just to make sure I am clear: I'm not saying that every couple who lives together without getting married isn't committed to each other. No doubt some are, just as no doubt there are people who get married when they aren't really as sure about their commitment as they ought to be.

But I am saying it's different - completely different - once you've made that commitment, whatever form that commitment takes - and by that, I mean whether you're legally married or not. For me, marriage is the symbol of that commitment, but - I am going to say it again - that doesn't mean everybody has to use the same method of commitment that I used. That commitment isn't as quick as the next day (at least not in my experience), but it's different. For me, it's better. Maybe for some people it's worse. But it's different, and I would guess that it's different for most of us.

As I said, I'm on a big ol' deadline today, plus I'll be out of town for work the next few days, so I won't have time to look for any data at the moment. But if this discussion is still raging when I have time next week, I'll see what I can find.

 

[Kirk's_Tights]

Ok so let me get this straight. Since living together is the exact same thing as getting married, why are some of the same people saying this in favor of gay marriage. I mean if it is the exact same thing what is all the fuss about.

And for the record, I have been married for a very long time. Wife thinks even more strongly about this than I do. So does ever single woman I know. As I said before they think any woman that would just live with a man and not get married is a @#$%! idiot as my wife and good female friend just told me.

I can't speak for the rest of the world, but it is completely insane and irresponsible in our society to not get married to someone you are suppose to care about SS benefits and the ability to make life decisions alone should be more than enough motivation for you. If you are ok with getting a Drivers license then you should be ok getting a marriage license. It is a little piece of paper that carries a lot of weight and only cost $30 -$60, which is the cost of a video game and ISP service for a couple of months.

You don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that people are committed in a relationship REGARDLESS OF A PIECE OF PAPER. I'm not going to explain common law couples again so do yourself a favour and google it. If I were to pack my bags and leave for whatever reason, it would be pretty much exactly the same as getting a divorce, minus the fact that we are not married by paper but are still recognized by the province as husband and wife because we have lived together for the appropriate amount of time. It's not my stuff and his stuff, it's OUR stuff. When we do our taxes, it's filed under common law. Do you not understand this? It's pretty simple (for the average person) to understand this concept.

If you and your wife and friends think that a relationship isn't committed unless the couple get married, wow, I don't even know how to respond with that. You don't know anyone here personally and you don't know their situation. From what a lot of people have said about their relationships, it seems like this forum is full of pretty damn committed people who aren't in it just to wait for someone better to come along.

My whole issue isn't that you don't agree with people living together before marriage. You are certainly free to think that. It's the ridiculous reasons WHY you think people do it.

Go and learn what LOVE actually is. You don't need paper to show someone you love them.

 

[Emher]

Wow this thread has gotten way more hostile.

And yeah just because I don't instantly marry a woman that doesn't mean I can't love her.

 

[Smiley]

I am a Catholic, so of course I'm going to fall on the side of believing it's not okay for a couple to live together before marriage. That said, I think that honest communication about the tough questions and mundane matters during the engagement period, together with a willingness to compromise that is part of being in love, is enough to prepare two people for how things are likely to be once the marriage begins. It's not necessary to live with someone to know them in all the ways that really count.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Every day I wake up thinking it's the 21st Century, and every day I come to TrekBBS and see something like free milk and cows metaphors.

By the way, everyone, please dial back the personal comments before it escalates into Flaming territory. Thank you.

 

[UssGlenn]

I have a theory that might sort out the source of this philosophical disagreement. I think everyone agrees that a couple that lives together solely out of convenience and/or a desire to find out if they want to stay together has a different mental attitude than a couple that has already decided to stay together permanently (regardless of if they are married or not).

This mental shift, of course, takes place when the couple decides to permanently stay together. The disagreement we are seeing in this discussion is occurring because one side feels this they come to the conclusion "I need to marry this person" Thus regardless of exactly how close this mental shift occurs to the wedding they associate the two together in their minds.

Other people don't place the same kind of ritualistic significance to marriage (as evidenced by them not getting married) and see it as a mere formality so they don't attach to this mental shift to it. And since this shift isn't instantaneous and they don't attach it to an event they may not be consciously aware it took place at all.

This is all just supposition on my part, I'm not engaged or married, though I am in a relationship.

 

[John Picard]

Living together IS the same as getting married. How do you not know this? Tuesday, you're a non-married couple living together, you get married Tuesday night, you wake up the next day and still live together as a married couple. You still do the same things you do every single other day. The only difference is that your union is official by paper.

I worked with my husband from 2002-2009. We were in the same department and on the same shift up until 2006. I went to another department but still saw him at work. All day at work, all day at home, and? Life would have been no different if we were married. We'd still wake up, eat breakfast, go to work, come home, eat dinner, watch TV, it's the same. You don't suddenly become a whole different person. You are still you. You still do the things you do normally.

Very well stated. I might comment that Galactus doesn't have the understanding of the US that he *thinks* he has when lecturing non-US members about the thoughts/directions in this country.

So...it's the same for you. Does that mean it's the same for everybody? For most people?

No. Not necessarily. Why are you assuming that it is?

I admit that I have no hard data that says, "The majority of married people who lived together before they got married say that being married is considerably different than not being married." I am actually pretty sure that if there is any survey data available on this subject, that data would show that most people who have experienced both would agree. But as I said, I don't have the data now and I don't have time to look for because I am on deadline.

However, you don't have any data either. We are all of us generalizing based on our own personal experience. I am not saying that personal experience has no validity here, because it does, but if your personal experience is applicable, so is mine. So is Galactus'. Right?

And all I'm asking you to consider is that perhaps, just perhaps, the fact that it is exactly the same for you doesn't necessarily mean that it's exactly the same for everybody. You are talking as though it is, and you know, you really shouldn't.

What I think is different - what was different for me - is the commitment level. I am basing this on my personal experience and that of other people I've discussed this with, just as you based your conclusion on personal experience (and presumably that of other people you've discussed this with).

It's different living with someone you intend to stay with the rest of your life than it is living with someone when what you're doing is finding out what that person is like to live with. Now, even though I've said this before, I'm going to say this again just to make sure I am clear: I'm not saying that every couple who lives together without getting married isn't committed to each other. No doubt some are, just as no doubt there are people who get married when they aren't really as sure about their commitment as they ought to be.

But I am saying it's different - completely different - once you've made that commitment, whatever form that commitment takes - and by that, I mean whether you're legally married or not. For me, marriage is the symbol of that commitment, but - I am going to say it again - that doesn't mean everybody has to use the same method of commitment that I used. That commitment isn't as quick as the next day (at least not in my experience), but it's different. For me, it's better. Maybe for some people it's worse. But it's different, and I would guess that it's different for most of us.

As I said, I'm on a big ol' deadline today, plus I'll be out of town for work the next few days, so I won't have time to look for any data at the moment. But if this discussion is still raging when I have time next week, I'll see what I can find.

Actually, in the US, people "shacking up", living together, or whatever you want to call it has been on the rise in the US over the last 5 years. Women living alone (either not marrying or post divorce) is also on the rise. Our society is changing as the female sex has become more empowered over their own destiny and continues to shatter stereotypes and glass ceilings. The data is out there and no, I'm not generalizing. Anyone can do some searching and find it. I'm at fault for reading a lot.

Anyway, reread Galactacus' posts. He *thinks* that the US has a closed perception toward people living together than the Europeans. In fact, it has become more and more common in this country.