Is it okay for people to live together before getting married?

[Praxius]

Marriage isn't anything like as important as it used to be. The laws protecting couples living together reflects this in most secular countries .

Marriage is as important as you want it to be, and it can mean whatever you want it to mean. It is subjective.

Let's not forget that Marriage existed long before any of today's common religions were a brain fart and that bonding and spending the rest of your life with one mate isn't something unique to just humans.

In many acient cultures, all that was needed to establish a marriage was each partner to express their total devotion to one another and that was pretty much it. There were no rules besides that, there was no routine ceremoney to go through, no rings, no priests or justices of the peace saying yay or nay that your marriage is valid..... heck parental approval wasn't even required in some cultures.

Eventually religions came along and took "Marriage" as their own. In early Christianity, it was determined that the church had no business in the personal affairs and relationships of it's followers...... but eventually it took it over, set up all sorts of rules and regulations, certain procedures, etc. to follow and that it all had to be done through the church or else it wasn't a real marriage.

The meaning of marriage is very subjective these days.... with many different cultures, religions, countries, laws, courts, individuals, families, etc. all having their take on what a marriage really is.

I know what it means to me.... and even though I do not follow any paticular trend religion today.... marriage does mean something.

But historical records state that Marriage itself is not "Owned" by one religion or another, thus they should have no right in determining who can marry who and why in the eyes of the law.

In your (generally speaking "your") own church community, sure..... someone breaks your views of Marriage, boot em out or sin their arse to hell..... but when it comes to trying to dictate to everybody else who doesn't follow your religion on how marriage should be, there is no justification, because they don't own marriage.

If your religion or church doesn't want to marry interacial or gay couples, fine.... but don't go trying to force the laws to abide by your religious views, because the laws are to cover everybody equally, no matter what their beliefs or sexual orintation are. If the courts and justices of the peace want to marry gays and interacial relationships, then they should..... they don't harm anybody except those in the relationship.... and that risk isn't any worse or better then any other couple out there.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

Something like HALF of marriages end in divorce.

I would say it's actually preferable to live together a little before marriage... there's a world of difference between dating and living together.

Living with someone before marriage is essentially a "preview" into married life. If you find yourself getting upset and irritated by the other's constant presence in your life, if you find you just don't get along as well being around each other all the time............. good to know BEFORE marriage.

In fact I'm willing to bet some of those divorces would be avoided.

 

[John Picard]

John Picard
If marriage is the same as living together, why would you not get married instead of living together? You are right that contract is the very reason people get married. Be it for religious or other reasons, people want that contract that says this person and I are one under the law.

So you're saying that if I date someone, but do not share the same domicile during the dating period, I know exactly how that person is or acts? No, there are big adjustments when people live together versus living apart.

I don't know about you or some of the other people here, but when the people I know are in a relationship, they are spending all their time together. When they are not at work they are together. The only times they are apart are when are doing activities with other. The rest of the time they are together. So they are spending everyday together. How much more time do you think you will spend with the person just because you are living together?

Not all people who are dating spend every day together. You are making an inaccurate assumption.

Seems to me people think that living together will automatically tell you everything you will need to know about how this person will behave when you are married (which rarely comes about after living together). It won't. You don't know how someone will react to something until it happens and you see how they react.

You just contracted yourself. Living under the same roof as someone will tell you more about how that person acts or reacts as opposed to not living together. That seems to be a no-brainer.

And why do you think religious people need to check their beliefs at the door when being a part of society when you don't.

I'm sorry, but we live in a (allegedly) free society and as such I don't need someone harping on my living style due to his/her religious beliefs. Great examples of that are decorating my house for the holidays, living with someone of the opposite sex, drinking alcohol, etc. If you get in my face about it don't get all butthurt when I put it back in yours and tell you to MYOB.

If I am religious and it influences how I vote, etc why do you think that is any more wrong than you being anti religious and using that to influence how you make decisions?

Why is it so important to you to tell everyone you disagree with their decisions based on *your* religious convictions? Again, MYOB.

 

[JustKate]

How can you know someone's habits if you haven't lived with him/her? Living together IS the same as being married, the only difference being formalities such as, 1) a State document, 2) the title of Mr/Mrs, and 3) name changes. Other than that, how could it be different? Marriage is a contract -- always has been and always will be.

Query -- Why is a marriage license the only non-renewable license issued by the State?

Oh, John.

Living together is NOT just like marriage, at least not usually, and that is the case whether you're religious or not. And marriage is NOT just a contract, and that's the case whether you're religious or not, too.

It's a commitment. Yes, there can be commitment without marriage, but to flat-out say, as you have here, that every couple who moves in together has made the same commitment as a couple who actually has made a public commitment (secular or religious) to each other is...well, it's naive, really.

I've done both. It's not the same. You won't find very many people who have done both who would say it's the same. It may just be a piece of paper, but as I said earlier, like it or loathe it - and I know people who preferred their lives before they got married - it's a pretty damn important piece of paper. Even people who don't like their marriages will generally agree that marriage is different than living together. Because it is.

 

[Praxius]

Threads like this and the TNZ really have made me realize how many people here are anti-religious.

Are you implying someone is at fault for their views or just a general observation?

People are free to do whatever they want. If you are asking me if I would do it then the answer is no. I really don't understand why anyone, especially a woman, would just live with someone before getting married. Seems to me all you are doing is waiting for a better opportunity to come along. If you think divorce rates are high, what do you think just living together and breaking up rates are.

Probably a lot higher, which im my view is a lot better then breaking up in a divorce.... cheaper, less stressful, you don't loose half your stuff, etc.

And isn't that what relationships/dating is supposed to be all about? To determine if you want to spend the rest of your life with this person? If you're not going to test, ask questions, get to know as much as you can about the person you are dating and just want to marry and figure it all out afterwards........... then why bother dating and just pick someone at random and marry them right away?

Because you want to know a bit about the person you plan to marry, correct?

Well other people wish to do the same thing, except some people may want to know more about their partner then you do..... everybody's comfort level is different.

It has been said many times, but I will say it again. Who is going to buy a cow if you are already getting the milk for free?

I'm not sure how that relates to this topic. The only times I heard that term used was towards sleeping around with other people while being married, not towards moving in with someone to get to know them prior to marriage.

edit:
Maybe I am missing something, but how much time are you spending with this person before you are married. I am seeing people talk about learning their habits, behavior, etc. Are you not doing that while you are dating?

You can't do both? I did.... but just dating someone only allows you to learn so much at one time, while dating and eventually moving in allows you to know even more about that person, their habbits, and such that they may not normally express outside of their own home..... just as you may do.

I will also say this living together is not the same thing as being married, if it was then you would not be willing to do one and not the other. Also how many of you actually think of marriage as a life long commitment.

I do, which is why I took my time and didn't get married until I was almost 30. Most everybody else I know have married in their very early 20's, some have also divorced shortly afterwards.

I think the effects on long lasting marriages has more to do with the age of the individuals in said relationship, moreso then if they moved in together or not before marriage. How can you determine you are making the right choice of getting married, a very long term decision to make, when you just got out of high school, just started to live on your own and just starting to learn who you actually are as a person?

I treated my 20's as yet another decade of learning. Not just about school/college/university learning, but social learning, independance learning, humanity, etc..... where my place was and who I am without the oversight of teachers, parents and family.

To make such a big decision of marriage when you just turn 20 or 21 to me is troubling. Granted many young marriages can and do last depending on their backgrounds, but when both of you are just starting to find out who you are as a person, what you truly like and don't like, what you want to do with your life..... theres a real good chance you both can drift in different paths in life...... Oh.... but you're married now..... Hmmmm......

I am sure you would get a divorce in a heartbeat if you became unhappy.

And I am sure you'd be completely wrong in blanketing me with such a statement. Being unhappy happens in every relationship from time to time. The moment you begin to stop trying, and stop caring about making the relationship work, or if it all doesn't seem worth it..... then the relationship ends.

For me, it'd take a lot to get to that point, but I, like everybody else, has their limits. Petty everyday things like a bad day at work, a little argument over something, etc. are not warrents for a divorce and if people are willing to make that much of a leap over such trivial things that can be easily worked out, then they obviously didn't think things through enough and are in for a headache which they rightfully diserve. (Consequence of Action..... take responsibility and learn, so to speak.)

Some people make quick decisions based on little information..... others take too long to make a decision because they think too much and take too much time to decide and then miss an opportunity..... and then there are others who are in between.

 

[John Picard]

How can you know someone's habits if you haven't lived with him/her? Living together IS the same as being married, the only difference being formalities such as, 1) a State document, 2) the title of Mr/Mrs, and 3) name changes. Other than that, how could it be different? Marriage is a contract -- always has been and always will be.

Query -- Why is a marriage license the only non-renewable license issued by the State?

Oh, John.

Living together is NOT just like marriage, at least not usually, and that is the case whether you're religious or not. And marriage is NOT just a contract, and that's the case whether you're religious or not, too.

It's a commitment. Yes, there can be commitment without marriage, but to flat-out say, as you have here, that every couple who moves in together has made the same commitment as a couple who actually has made a public commitment to each other is...well, it's naive, really.

I've done both. It's not the same. You won't find very many people who have done both who would say it's the same. It may just be a piece of paper, but as I said earlier, like it or loathe it - and I know people who preferred their lives before they got married - it's a pretty damn important piece of paper. Even people who don't like their marriages will generally agree that marriage is different than living together. Because it is.

BS, BS, BEE ESS. You mean to tell me that people who live together can't be or aren't committed to each other but by being married means they are? That is pure, unadulterated, horseshit. You can add all of the fluff reasoning you want to your explanation but to tell me that living together vs being married is different then I'm going to have to disagree and leave it at that.

Also note that not EVERYONE is suitable for marriage. That is yet another topic that chafes people (especially the devoutly religious).

 

[Galactus]

Why is it so important to you to tell everyone you disagree with their decisions based on *your* religious convictions? Again, MYOB.

Because if we are all free to decide and think for ourselves I am free to base my beliefs on my religious convictions and you are free to base yours on whatever you chose. Both are our personal beliefs. So the only way to MYOB is to not actually participant in government and society.

I know the term dating has changed over recent years, but if you are with someone enough to consider marrying them, I am sure you think you know something about them and have spent quite a bit of time with them. I don't understand what exactly you think you are going to "discover" that you already don't know. Just because you live together does not tell you how the person will act when you are married.

The buy the cow when you can get the milk for free thing, is used by the women I know all the time when the topic of "shacking" comes up. T'Bonz used it in one of these living together discussions.

Someone tell me how long would you think you had to live with someone before you knew you wanted to marry them.

 

[Cicero]

John Picard
If marriage is the same as living together, why would you not get married instead of living together? You are right that contract is the very reason people get married. Be it for religious or other reasons, people want that contract that says this person and I are one under the law.

I disagree. I think the difference between a married couple and an unmarried couple is the promise - not contract, but promise - they have made to each other. A married couple has committed to each other in a way an unmarried couple has not. The legal document of marriage is not its instrument, but its recognition - which makes things easier for the committed couple in society.

And why do you think religious people need to check their beliefs at the door when being a part of society when you don't. If I am religious and it influences how I vote, etc why do you think that is any more wrong than you being anti religious and using that to influence how you make decisions?

The problem with religions' involvement in politics is that religious beliefs are inherently irrationally held, and are therefore damaging to considerations of public policy, and to public discourse.

Religion is defined by the acceptance of some things on faith; that is, in the absence of evidence - sometimes even despite contradictory evidence. Conclusions accepted this way are problematic when used to consider policy. They generally cannot be reasoned against (or for), because they are not held on the basis of reason, and they are generally somewhat stringently or inflexibly held (non-evidentiary acceptance seems to require a significant degree of personal investment).

I don't object in particular to the conclusions held by religious persons, except insofar as those conclusions are damaging in and of themselves, regardless of why they're accepted. The mechanism of religion is itself somewhat troubling, though, in that when and if it leads to wrong or damaging conclusions, the religious person has no way of knowing that such conclusions are unsuitable or dangerously wrong.

 

[JustKate]

BS, BS, BEE ESS. You mean to tell me that people who live together can't be or aren't committed to each other but by being married means they are? That is pure, unadulterated, horseshit. You can add all of the fluff reasoning you want to your explanation but to tell me that living together vs being married is different then I'm going to have to disagree and leave it at that.

Also note that not EVERYONE is suitable for marriage. That is yet another topic that chafes people (especially the devoutly religious).

No, John - I very carefully did NOT say that. Please read what I wrote. You made a blanket statement that living together is exactly the same as marriage. I disputed that. Most blanket statements are too general to be accurate, and that includes the one you made.

If you took a survey of people who had lived with someone outside of marriage and inside of marriage, the vast majority would say it was different - not necessarily better, not necessarily worse, but different. And I say this has someone who has lived with someone outside of marriage and inside of marriage. You don't have to believe that if you want to, but it is nonetheless the truth.

And I never, ever, not once, implied that everybody should be married. It seems to me that you are responding to arguments made elsewhere rather than in this thread, and you are definitely responding to arguments that weren't made by me.

 

[Galactus]

BS, BS, BEE ESS. You mean to tell me that people who live together can't be or aren't committed to each other but by being married means they are? That is pure, unadulterated, horseshit. You can add all of the fluff reasoning you want to your explanation but to tell me that living together vs being married is different then I'm going to have to disagree and leave it at that.

Also note that not EVERYONE is suitable for marriage. That is yet another topic that chafes people (especially the devoutly religious).

As you can see from the responses in this very thread, people see the two as different. It seems to me the main reason people don't want get married is because of losing their stuff?

What religious people do you know that think everyone needs to be married and will be?

 

[Pingfah]

I know the term dating has changed over recent years, but if you are with someone enough to consider marrying them, I am sure you think you know something about them and have spent quite a bit of time with them. I don't understand what exactly you think you are going to "discover" that you already don't know. Just because you live together does not tell you how the person will act when you are married.

No, but it will give you an idea of what they are like to live with, which is an important component of most marriages

Tell me, how do you propose to find out if you can live with someone, without living with them?

 

[Kestra]

I don't understand what exactly you think you are going to "discover" that you already don't know.

How the other person loads the dishwasher. The bowls go on the top!

 

[iguana_tonante]

In Nerys' defense, there is a fair amount of religion-bashing here on the BBS, and there's been a little in this thread. But not very much. I think she perhaps erred early on in assuming that there would be more, because frankly, there usually is, and when it happens, it gets pretty ugly. (And pointless. And usually boring.) You all have seen threads like that here, I'm sure. However, that hasn't happened in this thread. It's been a remarkably free of that, really, considering the nature of this discussion. I think we all owe ourselves a nice round of applause.

I've seen anti-religious threads, I've seen anti-atheist thread, I've seen all kind of unpleasant discussion. I can understand where Nerys is coming from, but that doesn't excuse her for taking the initiative at name calling, in my opinion.

Threads like this and the TNZ really have made me realize how many people here are anti-religious.

Actually, this thread has been very friendly, at least until some people started acting like martyrs while looking down at the others. So there.

I really don't understand why anyone, especially a woman, would just live with someone before getting married. [...] It has been said many times, but I will say it again. Who is going to buy a cow if you are already getting the milk for free?

Do you understand how offensive is that? How infuriatingly so?

Also how many of you actually think of marriage as a life long commitment. I am sure you would get a divorce in a heartbeat if you became unhappy.

Don't tire your arm painting with that broad brush.

Kestra
No one has been attacking and demeaning, just hey are anti-religious.

Wut? How can they be anti-religious if they are not attacking or demeaning religions or religious people? Do the very fact that they disagree with you view all that is needed to paint them as sworn enemy of your faith?

I understand that some people don't want to get married, but the thread is about those people that do want to get married. So this is a different discussion than that.

Actually, as I understand it, this thread was started as a survey on people's opinion on pre-marital cohabitation. When did it become about people that want to get married?

Yes, there can be commitment without marriage, but to flat-out say, as you have here, that every couple who moves in together has made the same commitment as a couple who actually has made a public commitment to each other is...well, it's naive, really.

Nobody said every couple who moves in together has made the same commitment as a married couple. At the same time, not every married couple has the same commitment as some people that lives together. Again, I understand your point, but you are making sweeping generalizations.

 

[Galactus]

I don't know, by spending time together with them. Just because you are in the same house, sleeping together does not mean you are getting to know them.

Someone is going to need to explain exactly what you are learning that you would not learn by just spending time with them in general. How much time do you spend with the person you are dating? How much more time would you spend with them if you lived in the same place?

 

[Galactus]

I don't understand what exactly you think you are going to "discover" that you already don't know.

How the other person loads the dishwasher. The bowls go on the top!

They go wherever they fit at the time.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Your posts, however, have been more and more rude and insulting.

Now wait just a Flushing Meadows Park minute here... Nerys is of strong opinions, yes, but in all the time she has been here, she has never been rude *or* insulting.

 

[John Picard]

BS, BS, BEE ESS. You mean to tell me that people who live together can't be or aren't committed to each other but by being married means they are? That is pure, unadulterated, horseshit. You can add all of the fluff reasoning you want to your explanation but to tell me that living together vs being married is different then I'm going to have to disagree and leave it at that.

Also note that not EVERYONE is suitable for marriage. That is yet another topic that chafes people (especially the devoutly religious).

As you can see from the responses in this very thread, people see the two as different. It seems to me the main reason people don't want get married is because of losing their stuff?

Hardly. Most people see marriage for what it's actually become (at least in the US), that being a protected class of people with special tax breaks and treatment. It has less to do with "losing their stuff" than with the possibility that as people grow and change they just may not be compatible anymore. In centuries past, women had a man as a means of survival and security. At least in western society that is no longer the case.

What religious people do you know that think everyone needs to be married and will be?

Oh please, they're all over the television screaming, "IT SAYETH IN THE BIBLE....." as well as on this board. I live in the belt buckle of the Bible Belt where the religious people scream about family, sanctity of marriage, etc. The irony is the divorce rate.

 

[iguana_tonante]

In Nerys' defense, there is a fair amount of religion-bashing here on the BBS, and there's been a little in this thread. But not very much. I think she perhaps erred early on in assuming that there would be more, because frankly, there usually is, and when it happens, it gets pretty ugly. (And pointless. And usually boring.) You all have seen threads like that here, I'm sure. However, that hasn't happened in this thread. It's been a remarkably free of that, really, considering the nature of this discussion. I think we all owe ourselves a nice round of applause.

I've seen anti-religious threads, I've seen anti-atheist thread, I've seen all kind of unpleasant discussion. I can understand where Nerys is coming from, but that doesn't excuse her for taking the initiative at name calling, in my opinion.

Threads like this and the TNZ really have made me realize how many people here are anti-religious.

Actually, this thread has been very friendly, at least until some people started acting like martyrs while looking down at the others. So there.

I really don't understand why anyone, especially a woman, would just live with someone before getting married. [...] It has been said many times, but I will say it again. Who is going to buy a cow if you are already getting the milk for free?

Do you understand how offensive is that? How infuriatingly so?

Also how many of you actually think of marriage as a life long commitment. I am sure you would get a divorce in a heartbeat if you became unhappy.

Don't tire your arm painting with that broad brush.

Kestra
No one has been attacking and demeaning, just hey are anti-religious.

Wut? How can they be anti-religious if they are not attacking or demeaning religions or religious people? Do the very fact that they disagree with you view all that is needed to paint them as sworn enemy of your faith?

I understand that some people don't want to get married, but the thread is about those people that do want to get married. So this is a different discussion than that.

Actually, as I understand it, this thread was started as a survey on people's opinion on pre-marital cohabitation. When did it become about people that want to get married?

Yes, there can be commitment without marriage, but to flat-out say, as you have here, that every couple who moves in together has made the same commitment as a couple who actually has made a public commitment to each other is...well, it's naive, really.

Nobody said every couple who moves in together has made the same commitment as a married couple. At the same time, not every married couple has the same commitment as some people that lives together. Again, I understand your point, but you are making sweeping generalizations.

 

[Praxius]

...... Someone tell me how long would you think you had to live with someone before you knew you wanted to marry them.

That varies, not just with each person, but each relationship that person has. It all depends on how well you and your partner can work things out.

In my previous relationships it was different each time in their own ways. There were things that worked well between my partner and I, and there were things that took more time to work out...... and then there the things that never improved or got worse.

When you have more of those things in the relationship that you can't seem to resolve or come to terms with that you can't seem to resolve, what makes you think you'll suddenly resolve them when you get married? That's a pretty risky chance to be taking.

Sure it may take a couple of more years to figure out some problems and they will get worked out through the marriage..... but what if they don't? Are you willing to live the rest of your life with those problems or are you willing to divorce and cut yourself away from those problems?

I'd rather do neither, which is why I want to make sure there are as few problems to deal with when I enter a marriage so that when I became married, we can just go forward together in our lives and focus on more important issues, rather then wasting our time working on things that should have been dealth with before taking the next step, ie: marriage.

imo.

 

[Kestra]

I don't know, by spending time together with them. Just because you are in the same house, sleeping together does not mean you are getting to know them.

Someone is going to need to explain exactly what you are learning that you would not learn by just spending time with them in general. How much time do you spend with the person you are dating? How much more time would you spend with them if you lived in the same place?

You learn what their idea of "clean" is and how far they're letting the place go before they decide to pick up. You learn what foods they like, what they keep around, and if they absolutely insist on something like fancy bread or skim milk over two percent. You learn where they spend their money and how. When money is tight, what gets cut first? What temperature do they like to keep the place? You learn how they spend their waking time--whether that's working, eating, playing videogames, inviting people over, etc. You learn what they're like when they sleep. Do they swipe all the covers? Do you go to bed at completely different times? Does someone snore or kick in their sleep? You learn what it's like to have an argument but then still sleep in the same bed together that night. You learn what it's like to spend every spare moment at home with someone, and who needs space when. You find out how the other person changes in big or small ways during times of stress, what seemingly insignificant things seem to set off a stress button, and how to deal with them. You learn that chores like cleaning the house or putting away laundry are suddenly so much better because of the person that's right there with you.

Like I said earlier, I "informally" lived with my husband before we got married, and I do think there can be a significant difference. There doesn't have to be, there isn't always, but there certainly are things you learn from living with someone as opposed to simply dating them and spending time with them. Dating means different things to different people, so there shouldn't be any surprise that the responses in this thread would vary or that your idea of something may differ from another's.