Is Enterprise Canon?

[Nerys Myk]

Just pointing out the contradictions:
"canon is not to be determined by what the producers felt outside of the actual series (but what was in the series itself)."
vs
"the studio is in charge of what is canon and what is not canon" Currently the studio line is: All live action TV series and movies produced by Paramout/CBS are canon. What's "in the series" is not a factor.
If you believe the latter then you cant believe the former.
Nor can you as a viewer declare a series "Non-canon". You are free to dislike and disregard any series, episode or movie you want, but don't confuse that with canon.

Nerys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

Side Note:

Also, how many times do I have to say it? I believe Enterprise to be canon like the rest of the series. I just believe Enterprise to be an alternate time line.

In other words, our posts are looking like this...

I said it's canon!

No you didn't!

They're your words.

Good lord, you almost made me watch part of Billy Madison!!!! Do not ever do that again!!!!

 

[Navaros]

No, Enterprise is not canon. It was not called Star Trek, so it's not canon.

The name 'Star Trek' was slapped onto it in Season 3 as a last-ditch efforts to get Trek fans to watch it, and in a shady attempt to revise the historial record of non-canonity, retconned onto Season 1 and 2 in reruns.

But slapping a label onto a non-Trek show mid-series and in reruns does not magically make it become a Trek show, or Trek canon.

 

[Nerys Myk]

No, Enterprise is not canon. It was not called Star Trek, so it's not canon.

The name 'Star Trek' was slapped onto it in Season 3 as a last-ditch efforts to get Trek fans to watch it, and retconned onto Season 1 and 2 later.

But slapping a label onto a non-Trek show mid-series does not magically make it become a Trek show, or Trek canon.

That would be up to Paramount/CBS. If they want to declare the comic I wrote and drew in 7th grade using Trek characters canon they can.

By your logic the Dark Knight isnt a Batman movie.

 

[Dukhat]

No, Enterprise is not canon. It was not called Star Trek, so it's not canon.

That's a very silly argument. So I suppose Caprica isn't part of the BSG canon because it isn't called "Battlestar Galactica: Caprica." See how silly that sounds? (and BTW, if Enterprise wasn't canon, what were Riker and Troi and the Enterprise-D doing there?)

The name 'Star Trek' was slapped onto it in Season 3 as a last-ditch efforts to get Trek fans to watch it, and in a shady attempt to revise the historial record of non-canonity, retconned onto Season 1 and 2 in reruns.

They added "Star Trek" to the title because they realized that their silly scheme to trick viewers into thinking it wasn't a Star Trek show didn't work, so they just said the hell with it. Plus, they originally thought that "Star Trek: Enterprise" sounded stupid. It had nothing to do with canonicity or non-canonicity.

But slapping a label onto a non-Trek show mid-series and in reruns does not magically make it become a Trek show, or Trek canon.

Yes it does, actually, unless by a non-Trek show you mean "The Jersey Shore," "The Golden Girls," or "M*A*S*H." But we all know you mean Enterprise, and it's not up to you what determines canon. It's up to the producers that are making the show at the time.

 

[Luther Sloan]

They're your words.

Nerys:

My words made perfect sense. It is the way you were comparing them that didn't make any sense. In addition to the hundred other times you caused some type of confusion regarding my posts, as well.

Good lord, you almost made me watch part of Billy Madison!!!! Do not ever do that again!!!!

Apparently, this option is not going to work for us.
So we should probably silently agree to disagree whenever we are posting around one another.

 

[Navaros]

what were Riker and Troi and the Enterprise-D doing there?

Further proving that Enterprise is not canon. They proved that the Enterprise series was just a holographic illusion.

But we all know you mean Enterprise, and it's not up to you what determines canon. It's up to the producers that are making the show at the time.

The producers who made the show determined that it's not Trek, so there is no possible way it can be Trek canon. Trying to perform revisionist history later on, as they do, doesn't change that fact, and doesn't make it canon.

 

[Nerys Myk]

They're your words.

Nerys:

My words made perfect sense. It is the way you were comparing them that didn't make any sense. In addition to the hundred other times you caused some type of confusion regarding my posts, as well.

I seriously have no idea what you are on about. You say X and then you say Z. X and Z are not the same. It's straight up. Thats the only comparison I've made.

Apparently, this option is not going to work for us.
So we should probably silently agree to disagree whenever we are posting around one another.

What option would that be? All I know is that we are having a discussion.

 

[Nerys Myk]

what were Riker and Troi and the Enterprise-D doing there?

Further proving that Enterprise is not canon. They proved that the Enterprise series was just a holographic illusion.

But we all know you mean Enterprise, and it's not up to you what determines canon. It's up to the producers that are making the show at the time.

The producers who made the show determined that it's not Trek, so there is no possible way it can be Trek canon. Trying to perform revisionist history later on, as they do, doesn't change that fact, and doesn't make it canon.

No, the producers did not. They have no say in whats canon. Thats up to the Studio.

As for Enterprise it clearly states in the credits that it is "Based on Star Trek created by Gene Roddenberry. " The same credit that TNG, DS9 and VOY have.

At what point in TATV do Troi or Riker state the the historical holographic re-creation they are running is fiction? Or that all previously broadcast episodes of Enterprise were part of the same program?

 

[Dukhat]

what were Riker and Troi and the Enterprise-D doing there?

Further proving that Enterprise is not canon. They proved that the Enterprise series was just a holographic illusion.

But we all know you mean Enterprise, and it's not up to you what determines canon. It's up to the producers that are making the show at the time.

The producers who made the show determined that it's not Trek, so there is no possible way it can be Trek canon. Trying to perform revisionist history later on, as they do, doesn't change that fact, and doesn't make it canon.

I love how you pick and choose insignificant aspects of what I said to try to back up your flimsy argument (which Nerys Myk has already countered), while completely ignoring the more important aspects that fly in the face of it. You should be a politician.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Nerys:

Believe whatever you like.
I know what I said and meant. If you took what I written out of context, and claim it means something else. That is not my problem.

But please. Let's move on.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Nerys:

Believe whatever you like.
I know what I said and meant. If you took what I written out of context, and claim it means something else. That is not my problem.

But please. Let's move on.

The quotes dont really need in more context.
The rest of your post doesn't change the meanings of what I quoted.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Also, how many times do I have to say it?

Please, no more. My eyes are crossing from all the posts in this thread saying the same thing over and over and over and over.

All I know is that we are having a discussion.

Actually, Luther Sloan and Nerys Myk, you are not having a discussion. "Did!" "Didn't!" "Did so!" "Did not!" is not a substantive discussion, about the thread topic or anything else, except perhaps your mutual stubbornness.

Since neither of you seems to possess the will or desire to set aside your Last Word-Itis and end this merry-go-round, allow me to do it for you. You are now done splitting hairs over which one of you said what, when, for however reason. If you are compelled to continue your spam-o-rama, please take it to PM. We've had enough of it in-thread.

 

[The Lensman]

WOW: Some people have way too much time on their hands!

I'm guessing the irony of a comment like this coming from someone with almost 500 posts on a website dedicated to a make believe universe is lost on you.

It's their time to spend....

Clearly. I'm just wondering how long it took Braga to stop laughing. (BTW: I'm no Braga fan)

I dunno, take your pick:

A. When the ratings began trending downwards
B. When the ratings tanked
C. When the show was canceled..becoming the first Trek show to be canceled in fifteen years
D. Becoming known as one of the two guys who killed Star Trek

 

[Deckerd]

Isn't that a bit of trickery there, to say that it was the first Trek show to be cancelled in 15 years? How many Trek shows were commissioned in those 15 years? And of those, how many are still running?

 

[Middleman]

A. When the ratings began trending downwards
You mean since deep Space Nine?

B. When the ratings tanked
See answer to the above

C. When the show was canceled..becoming the first Trek show to be canceled in fifteen years
Very misleading statement, see Deckerd's response. Truth is Enterprise was the first Trek series canceled since The Original Series, so it's in good company.

D. Becoming known as one of the two guys who killed Star Trek.
Why not. They are also the two guys who kept it going for most of those 17 years. They have far more to be proud of than to be embarrassed about. Not that they were perfect, they did screw up a lot (and a few things that pissed me off) but on balance they made a lot of money for a lot of people and produced a lot of great Trek, Enterprise included. So If I were Braga and I got that letter I would laugh ... and he's pretty much said so (more or less) in interviews. And for the record, I really don't care for the guy, but we have to be fair to him.

Question: Do you hate Enterprise & it's supporters?

I'm guessing the irony of a comment like this coming from someone with almost 500 posts on a website dedicated to a make believe universe is lost on you.

Most of those posts came from playing that "5 Word Only" game and it's 500 posts over 2 years.

 

[Saquist]

A. When the ratings began trending downwards
You mean since deep Space Nine?

B. When the ratings tanked
See answer to the above

C. When the show was canceled..becoming the first Trek show to be canceled in fifteen years
Very misleading statement, see Deckerd's response. Truth is Enterprise was the first Trek series canceled since The Original Series, so it's in good company.

D. Becoming known as one of the two guys who killed Star Trek.
Why not. They are also the two guys who kept it going for most of those 17 years. They have far more to be proud of than to be embarrassed about. Not that they were perfect, they did screw up a lot (and a few things that pissed me off) but on balance they made a lot of money for a lot of people and produced a lot of great Trek, Enterprise included. So If I were Braga and I got that letter I would laugh ... and he's pretty much said so (more or less) in interviews. And for the record, I really don't care for the guy, but we have to be fair to him.

Question: Do you hate Enterprise & it's supporters?

I'm guessing the irony of a comment like this coming from someone with almost 500 posts on a website dedicated to a make believe universe is lost on you.

Most of those posts came from playing that "5 Word Only" game and it's 500 posts over 2 years.

I think B & B had a great legacy but clearly once Gene was out of the picture in 92 notice the consistent decline.

I'm not saying that's this is the only factor but by this point the producers need to remake Trek's image into something new. Trek seemed to stay in it's adolescent stage for 3 series too long according to these rating.

The reason why I think that is an issue is because after TNG we started to see real compeition on the sci fi scene like Stargate and B5 and by the time Enterprise hit the market we had BSG, Atlantis and apparently Dr Who.

They didn't step up their game in the final 3 quarters...they let that substantial lead dwindle away in the paint where Trek makes it's money...(the series) and the Gravey area (The movies) under them have been...horrid nightmares of script writing. First Contact could have been SO much more. The others were so mediocre I thought I was on the couch instead of paying money to watch something on the silver screen.

I think the blame and the sucesses are fairly deserved but count how many sucess are on that bar that exceeded the successes of TNG and Roddenberry's vision after he was out of the scene.

None.

 

[Mach5]

WOW: Some people have way too much time on their hands!

I'm guessing the irony of a comment like this coming from someone with almost 500 posts on a website dedicated to a make believe universe is lost on you.

LOL, you're talking about a guy with a 0.7 posts per day average...

Yea, Middleman, dude... Get a life, will you?

 

[SFRabid]

Things were not always great with Roddenberry. Remember TOS season 3 and TNG seasons 1 and 2. I feel a big problem was the quantity of Trek produced in a short time. With TOS we got 3 seasons plus TAS followed by a long wait. In the next run we got 25 seasons of overlapping series plus 10 movies.

This is what has me torn with ENT. As much as I love the show I think they should have waited at least 5 years before releasing another series. I don't know that the mass quantity affected quality since IMHO only DS9 kept it at a decently high level and that was in the middle of the run, but it did have an on affect the fan base. When TNG came out ST fans were desperate for anything Trek no matter how bad. By the end of DS9 ST was commonplace and demand was falling. What was acceptable during the return of TNG was avoided by the time Voyager went into production. Writers were running out of ideas and the saturation of ST stories was a hindrance. After 700 episodes it is hard to come up with something new. You can retell a story done in TOS if you are writing for B5, SG or some other series. It is harder to retell a story within the same franchise and make is seem new.

 

[Saquist]

I rather think the Berman and Gene balanced each other out...the cerebral mind and the Producer...once one was gone...the balance never came back.

I don't buy over saturation...The CSI's and the NCIS's cop drama and hospital dramas are running rampant. How people don't have as much desire for sci fi BUT...Trek showed that two shows at once was do able, and Sy Fy showed that running these series back to back was no problem and created much needed hype...

It's about the writing...plain an simple.
The product it's self.

 

[Middleman]

Yea, Middleman, dude... Get a life, will you?

Yeah I know! I need to get out of the basement, shave, put on a clean shirt and find a girlfriend.