JJ Abrams had almost nothing to do with Lost beyond the first season, and had nothing to do with the story in the later seasons, that was Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse.
Is Disney "Star Wars" universe imploding?
- Thread starter starsuperion
- Start date
I don’t think it’s trolling to point out sexism, racism or bigotry. I’m not the mod for this forum, but it should just be a given. Trying to ignore it allows it flourish since it becomes acceptable as long as it stays in the rules. It has no place in our society and should have no place online either. We’d be better off as a species if those beliefs died off because they became so socially unacceptable that no one dared to speak them out loud. We’d used to just randomly kill people for no reason and we managed to stop that except in isolated cases like murderers and they certainly aren’t popular.
Edit: Nope, I misread. Nevermind. I see your point.
Nobody here is calling anyone sexist just for not liking the writing, they are calling your line of reasoning to explain what you don't like about the writing sexist because, to put it bluntly, it is sexist.
Sexism isn't just about the very tiny (but very loud) group of morons yelling "teh womens should get back to the kitchens!" It, like any other prejudice, is alive and kicking because people aren't ever realizing when they're employing it because "that's just the way things are".
For decades we have had mostly men be actions stars, and women exist only to be rescued and/or conquered. Everything that Rey has done has been done, often better, by some guy in some movie ages ago. Heck, we've had literally hundreds of movies where a regular beat cop in downtown LA simultaneously has the skill set of a detective genius, an expert marksman, a martial artist extraordinaire, an escapologist, a professional stunt driver who can use planes, helicopters, boats, tanks and tricycles and nobody batted an eye.
And those were even set in the "real world" with no magical Force to call upon...
So when men do the stuff she does, it's normal, it's "just the way things are" but when Rey does it, it's unbelievable marysuism that renders all the other characters useless?
People aren't pointing this out to you, repeatedly, to defame you, or insult you, or convince you that the writing is perfect. It's fine if you don't like the movie, it's fine if you don't like Rey, or any of the other characters, or the entire storyline for that matter... all I'm suggesting is that maybe if you took a step back you might realize you're not as evenhanded in your criticism as you think you are.
Nobody here is calling anyone sexist just for not liking the writing, they are calling your line of reasoning to explain what you don't like about the writing sexist because, to put it bluntly, it is sexist.
Sexism isn't just about the very tiny (but very loud) group of morons yelling "teh womens should get back to the kitchens!" It, like any other prejudice, is alive and kicking because people aren't ever realizing when they're employing it because "that's just the way things are".
For decades we have had mostly men be actions stars, and women exist only to be rescued and/or conquered. Everything that Rey has done has been done, often better, by some guy in some movie ages ago. Heck, we've had literally hundreds of movies where a regular beat cop in downtown LA simultaneously has the skill set of a detective genius, an expert marksman, a martial artist extraordinaire, an escapologist, a professional stunt driver who can use planes, helicopters, boats, tanks and tricycles and nobody batted an eye.
And those were even set in the "real world" with no magical Force to call upon...
So when men do the stuff she does, it's normal, it's "just the way things are" but when Rey does it, it's unbelievable marysuism that renders all the other characters useless?
People aren't pointing this out to you, repeatedly, to defame you, or insult you, or convince you that the writing is perfect. It's fine if you don't like the movie, it's fine if you don't like Rey, or any of the other characters, or the entire storyline for that matter... all I'm suggesting is that maybe if you took a step back you might realize you're not as evenhanded in your criticism as you think you are.
Thank you
No that isn't so. Rey can be badly written without Anakin or Luke being badly written.
It comes down to basics. Example, Luke knew how to fly. The writer/s gave us something. Anything to work with. So we can marvel at how he was able to up the ante. Sure it's a magnificent stretch but Rey was a bloody scavenger. Good for her. Her survival and combat skills were her secret weapon. That she was so quick to pilot an iconic part of Star Wars (the Millennium Falcon) is pure Mary Sue ...
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Yet again, name one non droid Star Wars character who can't fly.
Please.
Just one.
I'll give you a clue, everyone can. It's not a thing that requires a lead in, in fact lead ins aren't really a necessity for any skills a character might have, there are other ways to convey that information that say it slowly for the hard of thinking.
Please leave the dead horse alone now, the bones are turning a funny colour.
Nobody here is calling anyone sexist just for not liking the writing, they are calling your line of reasoning to explain what you don't like about the writing sexist because, to put it bluntly, it is sexist.
Sexism isn't just about the very tiny (but very loud) group of morons yelling "teh womens should get back to the kitchens!" It, like any other prejudice, is alive and kicking because people aren't ever realizing when they're employing it because "that's just the way things are".
For decades we have had mostly men be actions stars, and women exist only to be rescued and/or conquered. Everything that Rey has done has been done, often better, by some guy in some movie ages ago. Heck, we've had literally hundreds of movies where a regular beat cop in downtown LA simultaneously has the skill set of a detective genius, an expert marksman, a martial artist extraordinaire, an escapologist, a professional stunt driver who can use planes, helicopters, boats, tanks and tricycles and nobody batted an eye.
And those were even set in the "real world" with no magical Force to call upon...
So when men do the stuff she does, it's normal, it's "just the way things are" but when Rey does it, it's unbelievable marysuism that renders all the other characters useless?
People aren't pointing this out to you, repeatedly, to defame you, or insult you, or convince you that the writing is perfect. It's fine if you don't like the movie, it's fine if you don't like Rey, or any of the other characters, or the entire storyline for that matter... all I'm suggesting is that maybe if you took a step back you might realize you're not as evenhanded in your criticism as you think you are.
Here's the thing, I never really thought about how absurd Luke is until all of this, ahem, "controversy" (read: temper tantrums and spoilt brattiness). I grew up with those films and Luke was cool, he seemed to represent the idea I could fight aliens and bad guys in silly armour. I never questioned it and as an adult that continued.
Now, I really am not sure why this is, whether I simply carried that perception with me from being a child or whether that's just what happens with heroes, they can do amazing stuff and get away with it because that's what makes them heroes. After all of course we watched the story through Luke's eyes, of course we watched the one in a billion guy who could do this stuff, that's the whole point, that's why he's the central character. But then along came Rey, I went with my son and brother in law to watch TFA and my son came out gushing about how amazing she was, how she could do all this cool stuff.
Again, I never saw a reason to question it, the idea never even occurred to me. This was Star Wars after all and she was the next big thing, the new hero of the piece. Then slowly over time I started noticing youtube videos (mostly by men) complaining about how unrealistic she was, how easily she picked up all these skills and how she was a Mary Sue. This was long before TLJ, the complaints didn't start there at all.
I thought this was strange, but in all honesty true. She is unrealistic, an incredibly talented intelligent, skilled insightful young woman in control of herself and her environment who by all rights shouldn't even be alive, or at best an emaciated and ignorant waif struggling to find any means to survive.
But then it occurred to me that the same really applies to Luke. This idea of taking someone from a backwater whose arc should include nothing more than staying alive until they die an unnoticed death and having their innate talents elevate them to changing the universe is nothing new to Star Wars. It's nothing new to fiction in fact, we have a name for it, the hero's journey. We know that hero by many names, Frodo Baggins, Luke Skywalker, Harry Potter, Corporal Carrot, Buffy the Vampire Slayer are all examples in modern pop culture.
They're all essentially silly and often the best examples parody themselves, ROTJ did this with Han's line "jeez I'm out of it for a little while and everybody gets delusions of grandeur..." in reference to Luke suddenly being a Jedi master rather than a sulky teenager in the blink of an eye.
So yes, Rey is silly, she's unrealistic, her arc is absurdly truncated beyond all feasability. But that's the point, that's what Star Wars has always done from the word go. The only difference is Luke fitted the mould, he didn't challenge the preconception of the hero being a young, handsome, athletic white guy, whereas Rey has come to us as a female in a time of heightened sensitivities, when people are feeling threatened by anything which smacks of challenging their identity and the supposed status which comes with it. That sexism might not be overt, it might not even be conscious per se. It's a cognitive bias built into our culture which people struggle to recognise in themselves, a fear of anything which rocks the boat or even slightly looks like it might be an attempt to alter the often unstated balance of power.
They can't call that sexism, they can't admit to themselves that's what it is so they look for reasons, look for any narrative that presents as a veneer of legitimate criticism, unconsciously applying very different criteria and biasing the intensity of their critical thinking to allow a pass to anything which correlates with that bias but no leeway at all to anything which challenges it.
The result?
Luke is a classic hero, a well rounded and written superhero who was destined to do great things. What weaknesses there are in the writing and structure of the films is perfectly excusable, it's pop culture after all.
Rey is a Mary Sue whose superpowers represent poor writing and a lack of genuine challenge or character development. Consequently she requires the most rigorous critical analysis to expose those flaws for the rest of the world who are being cheated by this abomination.
She doesn't need them, why would she? That's the point everyone with half a brain cell is trying to drum into you!
We never ask how anyone else learnt to fly, because everyone can fly, there's no case to make her an exception who for some reason requires an explanation for this stuff when no one else does.
Dear God you are pointlessly obtuse and everyone knows you do it on purpose.
Well they tried to make it believable with Luke. We knew he could and had flying ability. There was even references to his father and I'm not suggesting being a pilot is inherited, but the writers took care to build on an element of this young person who dreamt of adventure and so when the endgame of A New Hope had him doing something so potentially hard to believe, there was this little tie in. It was done better.
I disagree, he was completely unbelievable. He knew how to pilot a hovering speeder, a civilian planet based vehicle, not a top of the line space fighter. I'm assuming driving a car doesn't normally equip people to fly F14s.
Everyone in Star Wars can fly, it's simply a given, so why expect to be told how Rey learnt to pilot a ship? We don't ask how Lando learnt, or Chewie, or anyone else at all, much like we don't ask how they learnt to cook their dinner or get dressed in the morning. It's just a basic skill that's as common as driving is in the real world. We don't need it explained, we know she can pilot because we are shown her doing it. We don't need anything else and that isn't an indicator of poor writing else films would be very dull documentaries detailing exactly how each and every character learnt to tie their shoe laces.
Meh. It's not a given. Falling out of the sky is more risky than burning dinner. They DID offer a thread of explanation with Luke, something to make him more believable. They did not with Rey. If it were physical combat skills I would get it. Luke was awkward and needed Han. Rey being quick on her feet, I would believe she could take care of herself because she had to, that was her life. Just like I could follow Luke adapting to flying. Whereas with Rey it was ridiculous.
And yet there’s a huge difference between bullseying womp rats and flying a combat mission against experienced enemy pilots, thousands of gun emplacements and a Sith Lord.
Honestly, yes, Luke is said to be a pilot several times. That gives him some credence for being a decent pilot. But unless those womp rats have turbolasers strapped to their backs, or Deak, Windy, Camie and Fixer are chasing him in their hoppers and shooting at him, the whole situation is a little different.
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I don't disagree but there is still a link. Like when Finn and Poe escape and Poe is excited about flying the fighter... he asked Finn if he could shoot. Finn admitted to being able to shoot blasters but Poe gave him a quick rundown on how to shoot using the fighter's controls and Finn adapted. It made it more believable.
For Luke's grand finale he was mixing it with trained pilots. He referred to his farm boy experiences and he was good. Yes it was a leap but it still had some connection to story and frankly the coup de grace was actually the Force in the end. Rey went from telling Finn she had never left the planet and a dodgy takeoff to absolutely skilled piloting. Who needs to practice on a womp rat when you're Rey
If only Rey had been shown dreaming of adventure.
I don't disagree but there is still a link. Like when Finn and Poe escape and Poe is excited about flying the fighter... he asked Finn if he could shoot. Finn admitted to being able to shoot blasters but Poe gave him a quick rundown on how to shoot using the fighter's controls and Finn adapted. It made it more believable.
For Luke's grand finale he was mixing it with trained pilots. He referred to his farm boy experiences and he was good. Yes it was a leap but it still had some connection to story and frankly the coup de grace was actually the Force in the end. Rey went from telling Finn she had never left the planet and a dodgy takeoff to absolutely skilled piloting. Who needs to practice on a womp rat when you're Rey
And as @Spot261 admitted, it is ridiculous. The whole fucking series is ridiculous! Its a saga about space wizards and laser swords where it does seem like every major character can handle a ship and everyone is connected and you have giant moon-shaped space stations that can destroy entire planets. I am okay suspending my disbelief about Rey flying when I can do the same about a pint-sized, backwards-talking green guy with funny ears jumping around with a laser sword. It. Is. Ridiculous. Its supposed to be. That's what makes it so fun!
But if you want to talk realism? Luke would have been the first or second to go down at Yavin. I'm just sayin'.
I must admit in The Force Awakens I had serious doubts about Finn. I mean if everyone could fly he sure was anxious about pilots. First getting Poe to help with their escape and then relying on Rey. It's not such a bad thing letting your characters have insecurities.
