Is Disney "Star Wars" universe imploding?

[starsuperion]

Just like beating a trained warrior with a light saber is somehow justified because Kylo had a flesh wound from Chewie's bowcaster, which usually knocks storm troopers back, but ended up only grazing Kylo, then Rey, who only knows how to use a staff, beats Kylo, who is trapsing around in the snow filled woods, with simple stab lunges. A trained Jedi, against a novice..and yet, Rey wins, and Duece Ex Machina happens as the ground separates. Rey beats Luke in TLJ in lightsaber dueling, despite him being a master, Rey defeats all the elite Guard of Snoke, and the one time she is saved by a man, it's treated like a bad thing. She has to save Kylo, because he's just not as good as her. A Luke Skywalker trained Jedi against A novice force user..yep..no obvious reason why there..unless we conclude..Mary Sue-ism has been bestowed upon her. As many claimed from the get go in TFA.

 

[Spot261]

No we were talking about Luke and Rey both being done in two movies. I was directly replying to the above post.

Which was part of an ongoing broader conversation where comparing the development of the two characters.

Okay, Han grows up in a capital city where there are cars. Did he hot wire them? Joyride? Take lessons. I don't know. I don't ask where people learnt to ride in cowboy movies. Do you? Space ships were controlled by the fat tech dealer. They did not seem to be common. Especially for someone living in a hollowed out wreck.

You don't ask where people learn to ride horses in cowboy movies, but you do ask why one character in particular learnt to pilot in a sci fi setting where everyone gets about in flying vehicles?

She wasn't living in a hollowed out wreck, she was scavenging it in a setting where everyone else seemingly has the basic skills that are commonplace for people in that universe.

You may as well question where Black Widow learnt to drive a car.

Second, my problem isn't her plotting simply course and punching it but all the tricks and flips she does before that. As I said Lando used to own and fly the Falcon and he went down a similar tunnel and lost the dish. Rey had a slight bump when she first took off.

You mean she seemed inordinately good at flying a vehicle she was unfamiliar with?

But you don't question Luke being an ace fighter pilot from the very first moment he even sees an X wing?

 

[Campe]

But you don't question Luke being an ace fighter pilot from the very first moment he even sees an X wing?

Right?

There is no way that flying a skyhopper in atmosphere and shooting down TIEs in space is one and the same. But its perfectly fine?

I have no problem with either situation. These are movies. There is this thing called suspension of disbelief. If its so easy to suspend disbelief about space wizards and laser swords, then why can flying in atmo vs. combat piloting such a big deal?

 

[Kibbin]

Which was part of an ongoing broader conversation where comparing the development of the two characters.

Awesome Possum took my direct reply to that in a way that seemed out of context with the post I was replying to. I was quoting this to show the progression of the thread. My quote that they were replying to took me as complaining that the two movies don't end the same. I wasn't talking about that but the progression of the two characters at that point in there respective trilogies.

You don't ask where people learn to ride horses in cowboy movies, but you do ask why one character in particular learnt to pilot in a sci fi setting where everyone gets about in flying vehicles?

But do they? As I said nobody else seemed to have access to space travel in this shanty town other than the big guy. Heck some people there were trading what I guess to be decent/ valuable tech for bread. I haven't seen Solo so my view could be off but from what I've seen he doesn't seem to be as hard off in the start of that movie as Rey does in her movie. If I met someone on the street in a suit I would guess them to be tech minded enough to say send an e-mail. Someone who is scavaging for tech to trade for literal bread to survive on. I'm going to guess might not be well versed in e-mail's. Especially if I know they have lived thusly since (what age was Rey when she was dropped off?) Six.

She wasn't living in a hollowed out wreck, she was scavenging it

Hands up if I'm wrong I just took it or something similar as her home as we see lots of shots, a read made sled outside, her sitting and eating outside with her helmet and doll (gonna guess she doesn't take them everywhere with her but could be wrong) and the implication, at least for me, that her home is outside of the shanty town.

You mean she seemed inordinately good at flying a vehicle she was unfamiliar with?

But you don't question Luke being an ace fighter pilot from the very first moment he even sees an X wing?

Luke takes out tie fighters yes but he doesn't seem too much better than anyone else he is flying with. It's Han that takes out Vader, Wedge and Biggs that protect him with a shield wall on his rear while he makes his run. He's good but I think we overstate how good he is in that movie.

 

[Campe]

Luke takes out tie fighters yes but he doesn't seem too much better than anyone else he is flying with. It's Han that takes out Vader, Wedge and Biggs that protect him with a shield wall on his rear while he makes his run. He's good but I think we overstate how good he is in that movie.

He survives when 27 other pilots die. If you're going to go by realism, he likely should have been the first to go.

 

[Awesome Possum]

He survives when 27 other pilots die. If you're going to go by realism, he likely should have been the first to go.

He has special blood and a penis, he could’ve saved the day by himself. Unlike Rey who needs special justification to explain her talent.

 

[Trek Survivor]

Just like beating a trained warrior with a light saber is somehow justified because Kylo had a flesh wound from Chewie's bowcaster, which usually knocks storm troopers back, but ended up only grazing Kylo, then Rey, who only knows how to use a staff, beats Kylo, who is trapsing around in the snow filled woods, with simple stab lunges.

I don't think Kylo was solely weakened by the shot from Chewie... he was weakened by just killing his own father. I can't be the only one that got this from the film?
Kylo was convinced that by killing Han Solo the dark side would embrace him and he would become STRONGER. But, with his last act (touching his son's face with tenderness), Han was able to achieve one final victory. To Kylo's horror, killing Han didn't make him stronger. It made him weaker. Between that and having been shot, Kylo was very far from "top of his game".

Why is everyone so critical of Rey being GOOD at things instinctively, yet Anakin and Luke get a free pass? I know, I know - "the Force was with them." Well, wasn't it with Rey as well?

 

[Spot261]

He has special blood and a penis, he could’ve saved the day by himself. Unlike Rey who needs special justification to explain her talent.

That's the thing, people are going to inordinate and convoluted lengths here to justify why Rey is somehow exceptional whilst Luke makes perfect sense.

That they aren't seemingly even seeing the extent to which they are performing mental gymnastics to account for the double standard is telling, the idea of the uber competent male hero is so ingrained it doesn't need explaining why he could perform miracles, but she needs a backstory simply to be able to drive.

 

[Spot261]

I don't think Kylo was solely weakened by the shot from Chewie... he was weakened by just killing his own father. I can't be the only one that got this from the film?
Kylo was convinced that by killing Han Solo the dark side would embrace him and he would become STRONGER. But, with his last act (touching his son's face with tenderness), Han was able to achieve one final victory. To Kylo's horror, killing Han didn't make him stronger. It made him weaker. Between that and having been shot, Kylo was very far from "top of his game".

Why is everyone so critical of Rey being GOOD at things instinctively, yet Anakin and Luke get a free pass? I know, I know - "the Force was with them." Well, wasn't it with Rey as well?

Exactly

 

[Campe]

I don't think Kylo was solely weakened by the shot from Chewie... he was weakened by just killing his own father. I can't be the only one that got this from the film?

You're not.

Kylo was convinced that by killing Han Solo the dark side would embrace him and he would become STRONGER. But, with his last act (touching his son's face with tenderness), Han was able to achieve one final victory. To Kylo's horror, killing Han didn't make him stronger. It made him weaker. Between that and having been shot, Kylo was very far from "top of his game".

Yup.

Why is everyone so critical of Rey being GOOD at things instinctively, yet Anakin and Luke get a free pass? I know, I know - "the Force was with them." Well, wasn't it with Rey as well?

Mary Sue-ism. Duh.

Kidding, I agree wholeheartedly on this point.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Anyone else in the SW universe takes decades of intensive training before even remotely being ale to hold their own using Jedi skills in the real world, Rey and Luke are both outliers on that pattern, but for some reason people are quibbling over Rey but not Luke, then justifying it by focusing on the minute differences between them rather than the vast gulf separating the pair of them from anyone else.

Bingo.

 

[fireproof78]

I haven't seen Solo so my view could be off but from what I've seen he doesn't seem to be as hard off in the start of that movie as Rey does in her movie.

You would be wrong on this point.

I don't think Kylo was solely weakened by the shot from Chewie... he was weakened by just killing his own father. I can't be the only one that got this from the film?
Kylo was convinced that by killing Han Solo the dark side would embrace him and he would become STRONGER. But, with his last act (touching his son's face with tenderness), Han was able to achieve one final victory. To Kylo's horror, killing Han didn't make him stronger. It made him weaker. Between that and having been shot, Kylo was very far from "top of his game".

Why is everyone so critical of Rey being GOOD at things instinctively, yet Anakin and Luke get a free pass? I know, I know - "the Force was with them." Well, wasn't it with Rey as well?

Agree with this 100%. Kylo is not even close to a "fully trained Jedi" at all. On top of that, all the points that you made.

 

[Ithekro]

In both Luke and Anakin's cases we have people around them that can tell us how good they are at something before we see them do it. (Both Obi-wan and Biggs confirm Luke's piloting skills, and Watto confirmed Anakin's pod racing skills. If seen after the PT, Obi-wan's comment on Luke's skills is in relation to Anakin's skills during the Clone Wars.)

Rey has no one. Thus some people can't believe her when she says she can do it herself.

That could have been an issue with Han Solo in the Solo film, except we've already seen what Han Solo can do with the Falcon in "later" movies.

 

[fireproof78]

Rey has no one. Thus some people can't believe her when she says she can do it herself.

No, Rey just demonstrates her abilities. she "shows" not "tells." That's a part of filmmaking and visual storytelling.

Just like beating a trained warrior with a light saber is somehow justified because Kylo had a flesh wound from Chewie's bowcaster, which usually knocks storm troopers back, but ended up only grazing Kylo, then Rey, who only knows how to use a staff, beats Kylo, who is trapsing around in the snow filled woods, with simple stab lunges. A trained Jedi, against a novice..and yet, Rey wins, and Duece Ex Machina happens as the ground separates. Rey beats Luke in TLJ in lightsaber dueling, despite him being a master, Rey defeats all the elite Guard of Snoke, and the one time she is saved by a man, it's treated like a bad thing. She has to save Kylo, because he's just not as good as her. A Luke Skywalker trained Jedi against A novice force user..yep..no obvious reason why there..unless we conclude..Mary Sue-ism has been bestowed upon her. As many claimed from the get go in TFA.

 

[Trekkin]

have people around them that can tell us how good they are at something before we see them do it. (Both Obi-wan

For a supposed fugitive hermit, apparently Obi-Wan had quiet the gossip vine going.

Maybe he was kept informed by the same person that passed on the ‘Luke’s father totally wanted you to give him this lightsaber’ message.

 

[The Wormhole]

Maybe he was kept informed by the same person that passed on the ‘Luke’s father totally wanted you to give him this lightsaber’ message.

You mean you don't remember that scene in ROTS? Anakin laying amputated and burning in the lava pit screaming "I HATE YOU! GIVE MY SON MY LIGHTSABRE!"

 

[Spot261]

You mean you don't remember that scene in ROTS? Anakin laying amputated and burning in the lava pit screaming "I HATE YOU! GIVE MY SON MY LIGHTSABRE!"

Along with the extended version of ANH where Luke learns to tie his shoe laces?

 

[Kibbin]

That's the thing, people are going to inordinate and convoluted lengths here to justify why Rey is somehow exceptional whilst Luke makes perfect sense.

That they aren't seemingly even seeing the extent to which they are performing mental gymnastics to account for the double standard is telling, the idea of the uber competent male hero is so ingrained it doesn't need explaining why he could perform miracles, but she needs a backstory simply to be able to drive.

Short answer. We see Luke fail. When he first picks up a lightsabre to play pinata he gets shot in the butt, he gets jumped by a yeti, fails to stack rocks correctly or hold up a muppet, can't lift a simple x-wing and then looses his first duel. We like Luke more than Ray because he's a under dog. Does he outlast the battle of Yavin. Yes because we know going in that he is a good pilot. We also see people like Wedge having to help him with fighters on his tail and this is before he enters the trench.
Look if you want to do an uber competent lone hero type story like say James Bond then that's fine but don't try and pretend that your doing an ensemble movie like the OT.
We are not told Luke is good at fighting and lo and behold he loose his fight. We aren't told Rey is exceptionally good at anything other than machines and yet out flies and out fights people no problem.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

We are not told Luke is good at fighting and lo and behold he loose his fight. We aren't told Rey is exceptionally good at anything other than machines and yet out flies and out fights people no problem.

In TFA, I liked how Rey stopped herself from getting captured from Takodana by fighting off Kylo and preventing him from using his Force powers on her. Speaking of which, I also liked how Kylo's use of his Force powers on Rey while she was on Starkiller Base gave Rey no opportunity to learn about using the Force against people. I especially liked how she'd heard nothing about the exploits of the Jedi and so had no idea what the range of their powers were back in the days of the Republic.

 

[Campe]

In TFA, I liked how Rey stopped herself from getting captured from Takodana by fighting off Kylo and preventing him from using his Force powers on her. Speaking of which, I also liked how Kylo's use of his Force powers on Rey while she was on Starkiller Base gave Rey no opportunity to learn about using the Force against people. I especially liked how she'd heard nothing about the exploits of the Jedi and so had no idea what the range of their powers were back in the days of the Republic.

Shhh. Stop making sense!