Is Disney "Star Wars" universe imploding?

[Spot261]

So Biggs was entirely pointless in ANH. I mean I know we could half his screen time without any negative effects but his other scene was entirely there to tell us the audience that Luke was a good pilot. Guess he didn't need to bother.

I'd argue he was unnecessary yeah. That doesn't mean he didn't add anything in terms of building a picture but by now we are used to the idea that piloting is a pretty basic and commonplace skill in the SW universe. Everyone can do it to some extent. We don't question why characters in films can drive cars or cook food without any run in, why would we question Rey having some pretty basic piloting skills in a universe where we'd be hard pushed to identify a character who didn't?

and half the internet. Don't forget half the internet

Not at all. Not even remotely.

None of this anti TLJ "backlash" is remotely representative of the fanbase, or even anything like an even share.

 

[dahj]

and half the internet.

 

[Trekkin]

No it isn't how dare you!

You’re right.

There is the exception for porn.

 

[Refuge]

Gee I can't drive, but I can cook. Damn right there should be some solid references to Rey being half way capable of flying a ship like the Falcon.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Didn't Luke end his second movie sans hand and alive only because Leia sensed him and came back for him. The rebellion might be up the creek but Rey is doing fine at the end of number two.

If you paid attention, her big thing was that she was conflicted and unsure if she was capable of restoring the Jedi. Which is why Leia was there to inspire her.

Yes, it didn't rip off the ending of ESB completely and that's a bad thing somehow???? But Rey is traditionally painted as being more emotionally damaged or affected than physically damaged. You have to pay attention to her performance and the dialogue and not her physical appearance, which seems to be hard for some people to pick up on.

 

[Spot261]

If you paid attention, her big thing was that she was conflicted and unsure if she was capable of restoring the Jedi. Which is why Leia was there to inspire her.

Yes, it didn't rip off the ending of ESB completely and that's a bad thing somehow???? But Rey is traditionally painted as being more emotionally damaged or affected than physically damaged. You have to pay attention to her performance and the dialogue and not her physical appearance, which seems to be hard for some people to pick up on.

Strange, it doesn't seem all that difficult to me....

 

[dahj]

Gee I can't drive, but I can cook. Damn right there should be some solid references to Rey being half way capable of flying a ship like the Falcon.

So you can buy a giant furball or this tiny guy:

flying the Falcon without question.

But a girl, omg, let me SEE her DRIVING LICENCE!!!!!

 

[Refuge]

Mary Rey Sue doesn't need a pilot's licence

 

[Spot261]

So you can buy a giant furball or this tiny guy:

flying the Falcon without question.

But a girl, omg, let me SEE her DRIVING LICENCE!!!!!

Anyone remember this much of an issue about a pre teen Kirk seemingly being able to drive a car in ST '09? That's entirely reasonable of course.

How about Captain America being able to dress, feed and wash himself? I mean, we never saw any lead in on those skills did we?

It might be worth turning this on it's head just to see how absurd it comes across....

How many non droid characters can people name in the SW universe who demonstratably lack basic piloting skills?

 

[Refuge]

Whataboutisms strike again

 

[Spot261]

Whataboutisms strike again

Very reasonably in this case, we aren't comparing the misdeeds of politicians, we are questioning why Rey having such a commonplace and basic skill should need a lead in.

 

[Spot261]

When did James Bond learn to make an omelette?

Does that make A View to a Kill poorly written because he makes one without an explanation for how he came to have the skills?

When did Sherlock Holmes learn to tell the time by looking at a clock?

Surely by your logic we should dismiss as absurd any instance where he can tell the time of day?

Many episodes of the X Files ended with Scully typing a report, but surely that's poor writing because we never saw her learn to type?

I'll ask again, how many characters in Star Wars can you name who don't possess some piloting skills? Why single out Rey for having a skill that everyone else has?

 

[Kibbin]

If you paid attention, her big thing was that she was conflicted and unsure if she was capable of restoring the Jedi. Which is why Leia was there to inspire her.

Yes, it didn't rip off the ending of ESB completely and that's a bad thing somehow???? But Rey is traditionally painted as being more emotionally damaged or affected than physically damaged. You have to pay attention to her performance and the dialogue and not her physical appearance, which seems to be hard for some people to pick up on.

The argument was that both Ray and Luke finish their training and are ready to go after two movies. My argument was that the two characters are in nowhere near the same place after the said two movies. Rey is standing and facing a new challange of rebuilding the Jedi order with a rival about on par with her. Luke ended the movie having to get a new hand after being rescued after being thrashed by Vader. Like the end or dislike it you can't say the two characters are fully trained after two movies. That was what we were discussing.

Anyone remember this much of an issue about a pre teen Kirk seemingly being able to drive a car in ST '09? That's entirely reasonable of course.
How many non droid characters can people name in the SW universe who demonstratably lack basic piloting skills?

Pre-teen Kirk who promptly drove off a cliff two seconds later?
The problem for me is that if it is going to be a plot point you need to either mention it first or show more difficulty in the task. T-16 skyhopper or podracing was there only to set that up (or sell vidja games).
Otherwise you get Luke and Finn who have both not mentioned that they have any real shooting experience and so both struggle to get a hit on the incoming tie fighters in their respective movies before finally landing a shot.
Rey did neither and flew better than Han ever did. Heck even Lando, who used to own the Falcon, lost the satellite dish trying to do the same thing that Rey did on possibly her first flight of anything ever.

 

[Campe]

FINN: We can't outrun them!
REY: We might... in that quadjumper.
FINN: Hey, we need a pilot!
REY: We've got one!
FINN: You?

Why is it so hard to believe that a junker who is waiting around on a planet for her parents, who works for a guy who has a small fleet of ships, hasn't tried one out on occasion? Who's to say that she hadn't flown with Unkar Plutt before, learning how to do so? Why is a leap of logic so impossible? Why do we need to be spoonfed everything? You need it set up? She tinkers. She's been in Star Destroyers, Rebel capital ships, X-Wings, TIE Fighters, AT-Ts, everything. That proves she's technically minded. On top of that, the "We need a pilot"/"We've got one" exchange is enough for me, personally. I'm sorry that doesn't work for some. But if you used your brain, you can figure it out.

 

[Kibbin]

FINN: We can't outrun them!
REY: We might... in that quadjumper.
FINN: Hey, we need a pilot!
REY: We've got one!
FINN: You?

Why is it so hard to believe that a junker who is waiting around on a planet for her parents, who works for a guy who has a small fleet of ships, hasn't tried one out on occasion? Who's to say that she hadn't flown with Unkar Plutt before, learning how to do so? Why is a leap of logic so impossible? Why do we need to be spoonfed everything? You need it set up? She tinkers. She's been in Star Destroyers, Rebel capital ships, X-Wings, TIE Fighters, AT-Ts, everything. That proves she's technically minded. On top of that, the "We need a pilot"/"We've got one" exchange is enough for me, personally. I'm sorry that doesn't work for some. But if you used your brain, you can figure it out.

I agree they lay out the technical minded aspect plain enough. Her rewiring the Falcon and opening those blast doors et al is fine. I just don't think that translates quite so easily to actually flying. If she'd just gone into space and plotted a hyper space course then sure, maybe. But double back flips and what have you then call me a baby cos I could do with a few spoons more.

 

[Spot261]

The argument was that both Ray and Luke finish their training and are ready to go after two movies. My argument was that the two characters are in nowhere near the same place after the said two movies. Rey is standing and facing a new challange of rebuilding the Jedi order with a rival about on par with her. Luke ended the movie having to get a new hand after being rescued after being thrashed by Vader. Like the end or dislike it you can't say the two characters are fully trained after two movies. That was what we were discussing.

No, we are discussing whether Rey is any more fundamentally unrealistic than Luke. It's really hard to seperate the two if you are objective and reasonable about it.

Anyone else in the SW universe takes decades of intensive training before even remotely being ale to hold their own using Jedi skills in the real world, Rey and Luke are both outliers on that pattern, but for some reason people are quibbling over Rey but not Luke, then justifying it by focusing on the minute differences between them rather than the vast gulf separating the pair of them from anyone else.

Pre-teen Kirk who promptly drove off a cliff two seconds later?

Because he could barely control the car, much as Rey could barely control the Falcon. Where did he learn to make the car go at all? Steer it? Change gear? Swerve so dramatically as to avoid a police patrol without stalling?

The problem for me is that if it is going to be a plot point you need to either mention it first or show more difficulty in the task. T-16 skyhopper or podracing was there only to set that up (or sell vidja games).

Only if that skill is somehow remarkable, out of the expected norms. Yet we've had ten Star Wars films and not once encountered someone who didn't have piloting skills. Many of those characters have flown a wide variety of vehicles on journeys that served as plot points without explanation for how they developed the ability to do so, it's simply the accepted norm for Star Wars characters, so why suddenly demand that lead in for Rey?

No one has questioned why Han Solo can drive a hovercar in Solo for instance, they just accept it as a given that he gets in and makes it go.

 

[starsuperion]

CONTINUED:
FINN
Now that was some
flying! How did you
do that?! No one
trained you? No one?
That was amazing!
(beat)
You set me up for it!
(cocky)
That was pretty good.
REY
Good shooting! Thanks! I--
I don't know! -- I've
flown some ships but I've
never left the planet!
Your last shot was dead
on. You got him with one
blast!
(laughs)
It was perfect!
They're just staring at each other now, seeing something odd
and weird and wonderful -- two people totally inexperienced
in joy and camaraderie.

~From what I understand, Rey has no space flight training, which is much different then atmospheric flight. The above is from the TFA script.

 

[Campe]

CONTINUED:
FINN
Now that was some
flying! How did you
do that?! No one
trained you? No one?
That was amazing!
(beat)
You set me up for it!
(cocky)
That was pretty good.
REY
Good shooting! Thanks! I--
I don't know! -- I've
flown some ships but I've
never left the planet!
Your last shot was dead
on. You got him with one
blast!
(laughs)
It was perfect!
They're just staring at each other now, seeing something odd
and weird and wonderful -- two people totally inexperienced
in joy and camaraderie.

~From what I understand, Rey has no space flight training, which is much different then atmospheric flight. The above is from the TFA script.

I'd need to go back and watch the movie again, but I don't think the bit with having "never left the planet" is in the movie. What is onscreen matters. What is in the script less so.

 

[Kibbin]

Two movies, just like Luke.

Why is that concept so difficult?

No, we are discussing whether Rey is any more fundamentally unrealistic than Luke. It's really hard to seperate the two if you are objective and reasonable about it

No we were talking about Luke and Rey both being done in two movies. I was directly replying to the above post.

Anyone else in the SW universe takes decades of intensive training before even remotely being ale to hold their own using Jedi skills in the real world, Rey and Luke are both outliers on that pattern, but for some reason people are quibbling over Rey but not Luke, then justifying it by focusing on the minute differences between them rather than the vast gulf separating the pair of them from anyone else.



Because he could barely control the car, much as Rey could barely control the Falcon. Where did he learn to make the car go at all? Steer it? Change gear? Swerve so dramatically as to avoid a police patrol without stalling?



Only if that skill is somehow remarkable, out of the expected norms. Yet we've had ten Star Wars films and not once encountered someone who didn't have piloting skills. Many of those characters have flown a wide variety of vehicles on journeys that served as plot points without explanation for how they developed the ability to do so, it's simply the accepted norm for Star Wars characters, so why suddenly demand that lead in for Rey?

No one has questioned why Han Solo can drive a hovercar in Solo for instance, they just accept it as a given that he gets in and makes it go.

Okay, Han grows up in a capital city where there are cars. Did he hot wire them? Joyride? Take lessons. I don't know. I don't ask where people learnt to ride in cowboy movies. Do you? Space ships were controlled by the fat tech dealer. They did not seem to be common. Especially for someone living in a hollowed out wreck.
Second, my problem isn't her plotting simply course and punching it but all the tricks and flips she does before that. As I said Lando used to own and fly the Falcon and he went down a similar tunnel and lost the dish. Rey had a slight bump when she first took off. But saying that downgrades her piloting is like saying Sulu isn't a good pilot in the Abrams movies because he forgot to take the hand brake off when he got in the pilots chair for the very first time.
My big thing is that they took time to set up her tech expertise nicely and then seemed to realise that this wasn't cinematic enough, changed her skill to piloting and then forget to move across that set up.

 

[Ithekro]

Not for Star Wars. Flying in space is just like dusting crops. Only jumping through hyperspace is different.