I read an interesting book on Garth. It was his return to service after successful treatment. Although, he did not regain rank, he was given ambassador title. Anyways... its believed that his shape shifting device was what drove him mad.
Is Commodore still a rank post-TOS?
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Possibly so. But shapeshifting appeared to be his own dirty secret until he applied it for breaking out of his Elba II cell - whilst he got sent to Elba II in the first place because he had already gone mad. His doctors no doubt had alternate, and probably false, theories on why he had lost his sanity.
Intriguingly, while Pike was a captain, he wasn't shown to be a Captain. His rank braid was but one stripe on the sleeve, which is less than worn by Captain-ranked people from immediately preceding (Robau) and following (TOS) eras, or indeed any preceding or following era. Kirk, too, initially commanded with just two stripes. It might be quite usual for a starship captain to be promoted to the rank of Captain at the end of a successful command...
...Especially if ships the size of the TOS one are among Starfleet's smallest, as suggested by the newer movies. Kirk might have been the 23rd century Tryla Scott, rising to fame while commanding a 300m vessel in a predominantly 600m Starfleet. And after reaching Captain, Pike might have been given a meatier assignment - and at the verge of Commodore, the Fleet's newest Flagship. In a timeline where delta radiation didn't intervene, that is.
Timo Saloniemi
Intriguingly, while Pike was a captain, he wasn't shown to be a Captain. His rank braid was but one stripe on the sleeve, which is less than worn by Captain-ranked people from immediately preceding (Robau) and following (TOS) eras, or indeed any preceding or following era. Kirk, too, initially commanded with just two stripes. It might be quite usual for a starship captain to be promoted to the rank of Captain at the end of a successful command...
...Especially if ships the size of the TOS one are among Starfleet's smallest, as suggested by the newer movies. Kirk might have been the 23rd century Tryla Scott, rising to fame while commanding a 300m vessel in a predominantly 600m Starfleet. And after reaching Captain, Pike might have been given a meatier assignment - and at the verge of Commodore, the Fleet's newest Flagship. In a timeline where delta radiation didn't intervene, that is.
Timo Saloniemi
Could just be a matter of different insignia. We saw Starfleet rank insignia change from pilot, to pilot, to TOS, to movies, to TNG.
Alternate universe.
.
But the thing is, Robau isn't from an alternate universe at all. Merely from another spinoff, which we generally accept as being part of one and the same greater Trek continuum. (A spinoff where everybody wears identifiable TOS rank braid at that!)
Nor is there any subset of that continuum where the rank insignia would really change. Either they follow the RN/USN pattern with the collar pips corresponding to real-world sleeve braid, or they follow the TOS pattern that deducts one braid from the RN/USN pattern. A sudden "drop" would be an anomaly calling for an explanation, while we can just as well assume there was no drop.
Okay, so there is the TOS movie era, stretching to the 24th century, where there is neither pip nor braid. But the complex pins have their own hierarchy that never leaves the CO of a vessel to the humble and austere level of the characters addressed as Lieutenants or Ensigns, and suggests a rich hierarchy (in added arrowheads or whatnot) between those low ranks and the one of the CO. The same number of rungs on the rank ladder is denoted by visible features piling up. For "The Cage" not to have any visible features pile up between Lieutenant and Captain would be a space oddity we might better sidestep.
Timo Saloniemi
Nor is there any subset of that continuum where the rank insignia would really change. Either they follow the RN/USN pattern with the collar pips corresponding to real-world sleeve braid, or they follow the TOS pattern that deducts one braid from the RN/USN pattern. A sudden "drop" would be an anomaly calling for an explanation, while we can just as well assume there was no drop.
Okay, so there is the TOS movie era, stretching to the 24th century, where there is neither pip nor braid. But the complex pins have their own hierarchy that never leaves the CO of a vessel to the humble and austere level of the characters addressed as Lieutenants or Ensigns, and suggests a rich hierarchy (in added arrowheads or whatnot) between those low ranks and the one of the CO. The same number of rungs on the rank ladder is denoted by visible features piling up. For "The Cage" not to have any visible features pile up between Lieutenant and Captain would be a space oddity we might better sidestep.
Timo Saloniemi
I (and others) generally accept that the universe depicted in the last two movies was a pre-existing alternate universe prior to Nero's appearance. Some attach the series Enterprise to this universe too, and not the prime.
Well, any bit of Star Trek could be an alternate universe - say, ST:TMP. But there is no in-universe indication that the new movies, or ENT, or TAS, or "Spock's Brain", would not take place in the same universe as, say, "Balance of Terror" or "Best of Both Worlds".
Certainly neither the new movies nor ENT would be outliers in terms of rank braid. Early TOS is the odd man out there, and "The Cage" may well be confined to its own pocket universe for that. But the fun comes from there not being any absolute need for such things.
Timo Saloniemi
Certainly neither the new movies nor ENT would be outliers in terms of rank braid. Early TOS is the odd man out there, and "The Cage" may well be confined to its own pocket universe for that. But the fun comes from there not being any absolute need for such things.
Timo Saloniemi
Uncertain the Prime universe Kelvin is the same as the one we saw, as in Trek time traveling often produces effects before the change happens.
There's no reason why it can't be, considering that we never saw any ships of that era at any time before NuTrek came along. The only canonical ship that may have been a contemporary was the Daedalus as it appeared in various desk models. Other than that, the Kelvin could have just as easily been a Prime ship.
(As an aside, I've always wished that Starfleet had used ranks similar to the British Royal Air Force, but space-themed... E.g. the RAF have a rank called Air Commodore, so Starfleet would use Star Commodore, for example.)
I think, despite obvious stylistic differences, the Kelvin was intended to represent the Prime universe until the moment the Narada plopped in from the future. It would have looked hokey for it to arrive in a retro 60s pre-TOS style 23rd century (cool for us maybe, but not for a SFX blockbuster movie in 2009) so a bit of creative licence was applied by giving it a shiny 21st century makeover and some Patented Abrams Lens Flare™, but it's pretty clear to me that it's meant to be the Prime universe as it was a couple of decades before TOS.
I've never heard the theory that it was already an alt-universe when the Narada arrived and frankly it smacks of revisionism and wishful thinking... especially to lump ENT in there as well? Just seems like a handy way to get rid of the stuff you don't like. I myself am not too fond of ENT's depiction of the origin of ridgeless Klingons but it happened, it's canon. I'm not about to go "meh, alt-universe" just because I don't like it, however much I personally think it sucked.
Well, here's an explanation... say for example there was a war that happened recently, and during that war Starfleet decided they would simplify their rank insignia to make it harder for the enemy to identify higher-ranked officers. Eventually they reverted back to the structure from before the war, but the simplified structure persisted for a few years after the war was over, just because. Say, for the sake of argument, it was a Four Years War. (Did I just go there?
)When I was young, I actually did this in some "Star-Trek-but-not-Star-Trek" stories that I wrote. Everyone else seemed to use naval ranks, so this was a nice way to make things different, and the RAF had such unique names compared to our own Air Force. So you had "Star Marshal" and "Star Vice-Marshal" and the like.
I've heard the theory that it was already an alt-universe... and I actually like it. It's not about "getting rid" of anything, I just think it's a cleaner way to resolve some discrepancies. Yes, I know it is not the filmmakers' intent, but I believe I am free to interpret a given artwork as I choose. And yes, I know the canon is *full* of discrepancies, but since this movie gives us an "out" in its very premise... why not use it?
But what discrepancies are we talking about? Star Trek has never visited the 2230s before, so STXI isn't stepping on any toes there. And there's nothing special about the 2230s being "more advanced" than the 2260s - the 2150s were "more advanced" than the 2360s, too.
And it's a bit odd IMHO to decide that the 2230s "Robau Trek" must be an anomaly because it has normal rank markings, while the 2250s "Pike Trek" must be normal because it has anomalous rank markings...
Timo Saloniemi
And it's a bit odd IMHO to decide that the 2230s "Robau Trek" must be an anomaly because it has normal rank markings, while the 2250s "Pike Trek" must be normal because it has anomalous rank markings...
Timo Saloniemi
^ I don't actually remember all the details right now (haven't watched ST09 in a while), but the one that comes to mind is the fact that they used the same calendaring/stardate system in both the 2250s and in 2387, but we've never seen them use that one anywhere else in prime Trek. Could you say that the system changed in the 2260s and then reverted back to the old system in the 2380s? Sure, but it just seems cleaner to think this is a separate universe that has used the one system continuously.
Minor, nit-picky point? Stipulated. As I say, this is just my own interpretation, and I don't expect anyone else to agree.
Minor, nit-picky point? Stipulated. As I say, this is just my own interpretation, and I don't expect anyone else to agree.
Sorry, JRoss.
I'm not sure what you mean by the phrase vengeance weapon. If that's synonymous with war machine, I don't know that I would entirely agree with you about the implausibility of the concept. It could have been initially programmed with certain parameters for its original mission and if, for whatever reason didn't receive updated commands from its home world, continued to operate in the same, but limited manner, as it traversed through space. It might seem reasonable to assume that if massive numbers of planets had been destroyed in a systematic basis, that would be something that Starfleet would have become cognizant of some time before the events of the episode. Although the idea is attractive in some ways, that would also seem to diminish the probability of a berserker mission. We don't know where it had been and what actions it had taken before Decker's encounter with it, but it did destroy 10 planets in the two nearby systems that we are aware of. It does seem odd that the area is apparently close to Rigel, yet the system that was totally destroyed had only been completely charted the year before.
I don't know by what means we can even reasonably posit that the log is broken. It may have left the two inner planets of the system where the action takes place intact after encountering the Constellation, despite attacking the ship, again per some facet of its initial operating parameters. Alternately, it might have finished them off as well after engaging and neutralizing Enterprise. I agree that Kirk's musings on its purpose and place of origin really have no logical basis, the latter especially considering that if extragalactic, its presence would most likely have been detected long before this point as I suggested above. But at the same time, placing more than a shred of doubt on its impact on Rigel seems similarly broadly conjectural.
Certainly some study of the mechanism would be sensible and possible, given its having shown that it would ignore a small sized craft, but to depend on being able to meaningfully secure answers to its purpose before reaching that densely populated system would seem to be a rather risky plan to adopt. Although obviously limiting the breadth of information that could be gathered, it would be much more prudent to neutralize it and examine it afterwards than to take the kind of chance that Starfleet would be running otherwise.
While that might be true of the depiction of Federation starships, that might not be entirely true. According to the Treksperts at Memory Alpha, the events of "Yesteryear" on Vulcan took place in 2237.
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Point taken. Unless it's the good old Universal Translator at work again, changing kellicams to kilometers or vice versa without rhyme or reason, this is a discrepancy, perhaps analogous to a change in a system of rank insignia.
Is "The Cage" from an alternate timeline, then...?
Personally, I still get a warm and fuzzy feeling from speculating that Pike was a mere Lieutenant when commanding one of the smallest starship crews known. Or at least from assuming that Kirk originally was but a Commander.
Actually, Spock himself tells the Guardian to take him 30 years into the past of the framing story. Is that 30 years sharp, or is he trusting the Guardian's considerable powers of "getting it right" on this? Probably the former... But as said, this doesn't yet touch much upon the 2230s we saw in the movie.
What Kirk did: a weapon that goes active after the enemy has already won, exerting indiscriminate destruction out of sheer spite. Makes sense on Earth, I guess, as a means of blackmail. But out in the vastness of space, a narrow and straight line of destruction (one that would allow Spock to backtrack and speculate) neither meets the original mission specs nor sounds like a probable failure mode.
Yet the episode shows that Starfleet lacks the means to observe something like this in anything approaching real time: only starships flying into destroyed systems can find out that the systems are indeed destroyed.
The setup of the Rigel Colony is indeed quite confusing here, as both Kirk and Decker appear to operate in deep, uncharted space, not next door to the most urban regions of the UFP. But we could always argue that the Rigel Colony is a very distant outpost, far from the densely inhabited parts of the galaxy - and merely in the direction where serious carnage would follow. At Rigel, mere "millions" are stated to be at risk.
And I think we shouldn't, not unless our preferred interpretation calls for this. We can, after all, equally safely assume something that moves at a snail's pace across galaxies to be ancient and therefore well past the best-before date - or then not. What we can be pretty certain of is that the final system was an exception to a well-established rule, meaning exceptions are possible; what we can further bet on is that exceptions can be prompted by starships, as starships were the one parameter different when the DDM made its exception. So, calling in more starships sounds like an obvious move.
Why could Commodore Decker not call for reinforcements? The only thing preventing him from doing so was the jamming from the DDM, but that only mattered inside the star system. Either depart the system using the impulse or warp drive of the Enterprise, or let the DDM depart. The "most densely populated parts of the galaxy" could then deploy their vessels and achieve far more than Decker with his 1.3 starships ever could.
Timo Saloniemi
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