Is Commodore still a rank post-TOS?

[Timo]

The supposed blatant violations were most likely well within Kirk authority to operate given the (then) current Prime Directive.

I don't get that feeling from Icheb's wording, but I guess it could be interpreted that way.

Icheb apparently quotes three cases of Kirk saving an entire culture/species from extinction. Apart arguably from "For the World is Hollow", TOS never featured such cases - at most, Kirk might have thought he was saving people from extinction in "Paradise Syndrome", but his input probably wasn't necessary there. Since "Paradise Syndrome" did not feature Kirk knowingly violating any known rules, we lack examples of how he would conduct the deeds Icheb quotes. Usually, he slays baddies. Were the three cultures under threat from specific sapient enemies Kirk then thwarted? If so, he most probably meddled a lot in local politics, and violated all known versions of the PD in the process. Just as he did in the actual TOS cases of thwarting evil overlords or the like and saving cultures from somewhat less extreme woes.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

He saved entire cultures (multiple) by destroying the Doomsday machine.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Either you didn't understand or didn't read my comment on the specific citation in Voyager that you brought up in the first place. I only mentioned one of the examples that Icheb gave in his report, but in fact all three reference races and supposed incidents that never occurred in canon, one of which that was detailed in a novel only. Instead of repeating yourself, explain how it's possible to revise the history of something that never happened in canon, the continuity that you're defending.

Since I don't know how to state my objections more simply or plainly than "Kirk didn't commit 'blatant violations' of the Prime Directive in TOS and VOY said that he did," I'm just going to assume you're being willfully obtuse. If you insert something into a history that is completely at odds with what's been previously established, that's revisionist history.

But we're going around in circles here. Since I don't think that anything about VOY is worth discussing when it comes to TOS, I'm done with this debate.

 

[Anwar]

This elitist attitude TOSers give off is one major reason it's hard to have these discussions.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

This elitist attitude TOSers give off is one major reason it's hard to have these discussions.

How lovely that we're not having it, then.

 

[Timo]

It's not as if 1990s or 2000s writers could simply pretend that the 1960s way of thinking is still popular and acceptable - the audiences would see Kirk's actions as villainous because the definition of villain has changed.

Now, 2010s writers could do the modern thing and praise past atrocities while ignoring modern audience sentiments, because it's cool for the "heroes" to follow alternate morals (vikings, bikers, drug lords, ruthless mass-murdering rulers of fictional kingdoms, what-have-you). But that's somewhat different, because Trek isn't merely doing the "fiction & audience" game, it's doing the more complex "fictional past & fictional present & audience" one where there has to be contrast between the fictional eras (else why have them in the first place?).

He saved entire cultures (multiple) by destroying the Doomsday machine.

We don't really know that for sure. Perhaps the DDM has a safeguard system that prevents it from destroying inhabited planets? It never destroyed one to the best knowledge of our heroes. And it did not systematically destroy all planets in a given system - that is, tellingly, it did, until hitting a system where it (accidentally?) bit humanoid flesh on the side, and then apparently immediately ceased and desisted!

The DDM behavior is consistent with responsible demolition work where the machine even warns dangerously curious spacecraft off the worksite... No doubt the notice was duly available for examination at the billboard over at Andromeda, and it was the Milky Wayians' own damn fault for not bothering to go and read it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Perhaps the DDM has a safeguard system that prevents it from destroying inhabited planets?

The planet with the Constellation's crew was inhabited, by them. Or would the DDM's sensors be such that it could determine the crew to be non-indigenous?

revisionist history

Was it a matter of adding to the established canon, or changing something that was previously carved in Trek stone (the despicable "retcon"). We didn't see every one of Kirk's decisions and adventures, whatever is being referred to in Voyager apparent happened outside of our viewpoint.

My position is that the people on Voyager are viewing Kirk's actions (whatever they were) through the prism of their own laws, sensibilities and cultural rules.

It would be like accusing Kirk of multiple breaches of the temporal prime directive, which might not have existed in any form at the time he supposedly breached them.

You could certainly make the argument that regardless of the rules of the day that Kirk and his actions were ethically wrong, but can you hold anyone responsible for violating a law which didn't exist at the time?

.

 

[Timo]

And that was definitely their own fault. The DDM might well have scanned the planet just minutes before the beam-down and decided to proceed. Or then 400 people would be too little to register.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[1001001]

This elitist attitude TOSers give off is one major reason it's hard to have these discussions.

How lovely that we're not having it, then.

Deep cleansing breaths, everyone.

 

[T'Girl]

And that was definitely their own fault. The DDM might well have scanned the planet just minutes before the beam-down and decided to proceed. Or then 400 people would be too little to register.

If the episode's conjecture is true, and the DDM was created as a weapon of war, then a program to avoid destroying living worlds wouldn't make sense.

There's also the thought that if the planet that Decker beamed his crew down to was a "Class M" planet, then there would be a good chance that there would be life there already, possibly intelligent life.. And even if there was not indigenous intellegence now, there could be in the future.

Most likely when the DDM reached the colonies in the next star system over, it would have destroyed those colonies.

 

[Anwar]

How lovely that we're not having it, then.

Yeah, it'd probably end with you frothing at the mouth over how everything about modern values is wrong and the values of the 1960s are the only ones worth holding onto.

That and some nonsense about how Kirk and co were utter perfection and no one is allowed to say anything negative about anyone from TOS.

 

[Drone]

He saved entire cultures (multiple) by destroying the Doomsday machine.

We don't really know that for sure. Perhaps the DDM has a safeguard system that prevents it from destroying inhabited planets? It never destroyed one to the best knowledge of our heroes. And it did not systematically destroy all planets in a given system - that is, tellingly, it did, until hitting a system where it (accidentally?) bit humanoid flesh on the side, and then apparently immediately ceased and desisted!

The DDM behavior is consistent with responsible demolition work where the machine even warns dangerously curious spacecraft off the worksite... No doubt the notice was duly available for examination at the billboard over at Andromeda, and it was the Milky Wayians' own damn fault for not bothering to go and read it.

Timo Saloniemi

If the episode's conjecture is true, and the DDM was created as a weapon of war, then a program to avoid destroying living worlds wouldn't make sense.

There's also the thought that if the planet that Decker beamed his crew down to was a "Class M" planet, then there would be a good chance that there would be life there already, possibly intelligent life.. And even if there was not indigenous intellegence now, there could be in the future.

Most likely when the DDM reached the colonies in the next star system over, it would have destroyed those colonies.

It's all speculation, naturally, but what plausible purpose would it serve other than a war machine? Way out of scale to be designed to eliminate space junk, meteors, or even asteroids. You're mention of demolition, Timo, put me me in mind of a variant of the Vogon construction lorry used to blast us Terrans in Hitchhiker's Guide, but I don't recall if a warning message was a part of the process. Regardless, I think hyperspace highway construction is a bit fanciful , even for TOS, so I think we need to come up with another raison d'etre for the log, however unlikely the possiblility, IMO anyway.

 

[Avro Arrow]

You're mention of demolition, Timo, put me me in mind of a variant of the Vogon construction lorry used to blast us Terrans in Hitchhiker's Guide

Well, Timo did basically reference that exact story, so that's certainly understandable!

 

[Johnny7oak]

Hi. I wanted to add... after struggling through reading about ST:TMP comparisons of time lapses and Kirk romance, and the Voyager 6... I did enjoy reading it all... lots and lots here. It is interesting to note a Commodore was listed as both no longer used in US, still used in UK, and also having been replaced by RA. (with some parallels to JJ Abrahm's...)

I kind of agree that it could be similar in title to Fleet Captain or charge of fleet... which I think was in the first page of things... yet not necessarily related to "Fleet Captain" in wording. Kirk was commander of the Flag ship, and so was Picard... so kind of makes me assume Flag ship captain is not the grade. Fleet Captain, however... might be similar to the TOS era Commadore. With Commodore having charge of sector star base, explaining why in TOS there has Commodores that frequent the show without a starship. I could see it as 'Tactical' charge of all sector activity and thus a planning stage launched at sort of a headquarters with Commodore acting as Fleet captain from the headquarters.

By TNG: this planning table of strategy had Admirals in Vessels... similar to why Picard took control of the fleet at ST: First Contact.... just prior having been mentioned the Admirals ship is destroyed. My thought is... a difference in policy.... of sector strategic planning giving Admiral's station aboard a moving vessel and no longer Commodore was used.

Fleet Captain: would be giving charge to a captain to take control of the fleet. Commodore: may have been the same scenario, yet with out the ability to participate as captain of a starship.

I hope this was different... I had a lot to absorb from 3 or 4 pages.

 

[Timo]

The speculation about the DDM being a vengeance weapon makes the least sense of all. No vengeance weapon would operate in such a haphazard manner unless badly broken - and if the DDM is badly broken, there's no prerequisite for it to have been a vengeance weapon to begin with.

A berserker would make more sense. If the creators believed that planets give birth to enemies, destroying all planets would be a good idea (although concentrating on already inhabited or inhabitable ones might be more efficient, if the creators knew what standards of inhabitable the enemy would follow). But the DDM does not destroy all planets - in the L-374 system, it left the job half-done. Right after digesting 400 people, interestingly enough.

But as long as we accept "broken", the DDM could be a terraforming machine, too. Or simply a mining tool that has gotten confused about its target parameters.

The thing is, our heroes can't tell. Their speculation about vengeance weapons is utterly baseless; the theory about an extragalactic origin, doubly so. There's no telling what the machine really would do when reaching the Rigel colony/ Rigel colonies. If greater starship resources were better spent in trying to understand and perhaps control the thing, a "dumb beast" could easily be manipulated into being harmless or even beneficial; a "sapient tool", even more so.

To make this at least tangentially relevant to the subject matter, we have to wonder why Decker was a Commodore (apart from the dramatic necessity of making him unambiguously Kirk's superior). Did he command a fleet of vessels, like Commodore Wesley arguably did in "The Ultimate Computer"? The subspace jamming effect of the DDM would cut Decker off his other assets efficiently enough.

Kirk was commander of the Flag ship

Where? When? We never learned that either the TOS ship or the E-A would have enjoyed flagship status (except perhaps briefly in "The Menagerie" where Commodore Mendez flew his flag aboard the ship; all the other flag officers were mere passengers aboard Kirk's command).

Fleet Captain, however...

...Could simply be the longer expression for Captain. To tell Jim Kirk apart from Leo Walsh, that is: some captains are (Star)fleet captains, others are not.

The only time the concept of "fleet captain" is mentioned is in relation to Christopher Pike. Perhaps he already held the credentials of captain from some civilian context, so his promotion to the Starfleet rank required special clarification?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[1001001]

Yeah, it'd probably end with you frothing at the mouth over how everything about modern values is wrong and the values of the 1960s are the only ones worth holding onto.

That and some nonsense about how Kirk and co were utter perfection and no one is allowed to say anything negative about anyone from TOS.

I tried to address this part of the conversation using a little light humor. Obviously it didn't work.

Drop the personal stuff. Make your point without insulting the other poster.

Thanks.

 

[Johnny7oak]

Where? When? We never learned that either the TOS ship or the E-A would have enjoyed flagship status (except perhaps briefly in "The Menagerie" where Commodore Mendez flew his flag aboard the ship; all the other flag officers were mere passengers aboard Kirk's command).

I suppose I should clarify. Enterprise was the "Flag ship" of the federation task force. I think that it was in Enterprise Inncident...

 

[Timo]

Hmm... The only time we saw more than two starships at the same time (and indeed the only time the other one of them wasn't in distress, with the Enterprise charging to the rescue) was in "The Ultimate Computer". And there the Enterprise wasn't in charge of the formation - the Lexington was the lead ship, with a Commodore on board.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Avro Arrow]

To make this at least tangentially relevant to the subject matter, we have to wonder why Decker was a Commodore (apart from the dramatic necessity of making him unambiguously Kirk's superior). Did he command a fleet of vessels, like Commodore Wesley arguably did in "The Ultimate Computer"? The subspace jamming effect of the DDM would cut Decker off his other assets efficiently enough.

I would tend to think not. Decker was hell-bent on destroying the DDM and he already knew how tough it was; if there was a fleet lurking nearby, once Decker took command of Enterprise, it would have been trivial to warp out of jamming range in order to call them in.

The only time the concept of "fleet captain" is mentioned is in relation to Christopher Pike. Perhaps he already held the credentials of captain from some civilian context, so his promotion to the Starfleet rank required special clarification?

Although not stated explicitly, Kirk's dialogue sort of implies Pike's promotion to Fleet Captain happened at the same time as Kirk took over the Enterprise from Pike, and since Pike was already a captain then, there should be something different about being a Fleet Captain. Although whether that's an actual rank, or just a position title, is certainly up in the air. (I prefer it as a rank, personally, as it's nice to have some little touches that makes Starfleet a bit different than the USN in space.)

And Garth could also be a Fleet Captain, but in that instance, they consistently referred to it as "Starship Fleet Captain", thereby making it somewhat more ambiguous.

 

[Drone]

Well, Timo did basically reference that exact story, so that's certainly understandable!

Honestly, its been so long that I've even thought of it, that the spark of recognition went off at the beginning of the first line and despite the post's brevity I rushed to comment without bothering to being cognizant of how familiar the remainder of Timo's thought obviously was!!!

Well, not the first time getting overly excited about something wound up getting me deducted several million for good thinking or some such.