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Is Commodore still a rank post-TOS?

Why would the captains of eight ships matter in the big scheme of things, though? Starfleet's hundreds of other ships at Laurentius never faced any known danger, and there should be no shortage of veteran Captains or veteran Commanders ready for a promotion.

Timo Saloniemi
 
To be fair, the Kirk we see in the Abrams movies has more to do with how he's written then with Pine's performance. Pine isn't actually a bad actor, unfortunately the character written for him isn't really written that well. The writers really don't seem to understand anything about Captain Kirk the character or being a captain in general. As you say, they write Kirk the stereotype known to the general public, the rowdy ladies man who makes his own rules. In TOS Kirk was in fact a very professional and intelligent officer and leader, and while he wouldn't rigidly follow the rules if there was a better option, he was still very disciplined and held a high standard for his crew and a higher one for himself.

Of course these are the same movies where Kirk doesn't graduate the Academy, spends a day as a Lieutenant, and is then promoted to command the Enterprise. I really shouldn't expect these writers to understand the nuances of what makes someone a good captain.

Oh, I know it's probably more down to writing. I also think Pine is a good actor, and, like I said above, I actually like Kirk. The caricature aspect just bothers me a little when I think about it.
 
To be fair, the Kirk we see in the Abrams movies has more to do with how he's written then with Pine's performance. Pine isn't actually a bad actor, unfortunately the character written for him isn't really written that well. The writers really don't seem to understand anything about Captain Kirk the character or being a captain in general. As you say, they write Kirk the stereotype known to the general public, the rowdy ladies man who makes his own rules. In TOS Kirk was in fact a very professional and intelligent officer and leader, and while he wouldn't rigidly follow the rules if there was a better option, he was still very disciplined and held a high standard for his crew and a higher one for himself.

Of course these are the same movies where Kirk doesn't graduate the Academy, spends a day as a Lieutenant, and is then promoted to command the Enterprise. I really shouldn't expect these writers to understand the nuances of what makes someone a good captain.

Yep, but the ladies' man/rule-breaker caricature really started with TWOK, TOS Kirk wasn't the type to cheat on a test or be a deadbeat dad (he also seemed secure enough with himself not to have a mid-life crisis).

I've often though that nuKirk is really more of a young Meyer-Bennett Kirk than a young TOS Kirk. Which maybe makes sense, I bet the average non-Trekkie moviegoer today is both more familiar with the caricature and more likely to have seen the TOS movies than the TV series, so I can see why Orci and Kurtzman went that route, since there's a need to give the audience what they expect.
 
Since the US Navy eliminated the rank of Commodore in the 1980s, it was decided in TNG that Starfleet also eliminated the rank. Trek reference material suggests that Starfleet replaced it with the rank Rear Admiral, Lower Half just like the US Navy did, but I'm not sure if there is any evidence of this in the show.

Though I would point out that the US Navy didn't have the rank of commodore in the 1960's when TOS was made, either.

In the Navy there is a difference between Captain by rank and Captain by position. Captain by position overrules Captain by rank, that simple.

Even simpler: Whenever there are two of the same military grade, one is always senior and one is junior. People are used to it and it causes little confusion or problems.

I always thought of a commodore as being a senior captain in Starfleet, one who could command a starship or a starbase , but also had senior authority in a taskforce or a sector operation.

Seems reasonable. Though rare in USN history, commodores (by rank) did command some single ships after the Civil War.

1866_cdres_zpsbqiyqlqx.jpg


The first commanding officer of the British Royal Navy's new aircraft carrier Queen Elizabeth is a commodore, though in the RN the commodore rank is not considered a flag officer as it was in the USN (and Starfleet).

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-an...uary/27/140227-captain-of-hms-queen-elizabeth
 
Yep, but the ladies' man/rule-breaker caricature really started with TWOK, TOS Kirk wasn't the type to cheat on a test or be a deadbeat dad (he also seemed secure enough with himself not to have a mid-life crisis).

I can easily see the TOS Kirk having a midlife crisis. He questioned himself a lot. I also think not having Spock and McCoy as his regular support system makes a real difference. Without them, Kirk can be pretty adrift and succumb to melancholy, as we saw in TMP, TWOK, and even in GEN to some degree.

I can actually see TOS Kirk cheating on a test as well, but never as a first resort. One of the very first qualities we saw in TOS Kirk was his ability to think outside the box (The Corbomite Maneuver, anyone?). And I subscribe to the theory that Kirk changed the conditions of the test to make it possible to win, but not make himself definitely win. So Kirk basically made the Kobayashi Maru test more fair than it already was.
I've often though that nuKirk is really more of a young Meyer-Bennett Kirk than a young TOS Kirk. Which maybe makes sense, I bet the average non-Trekkie moviegoer today is both more familiar with the caricature and more likely to have seen the TOS movies than the TV series, so I can see why Orci and Kurtzman went that route, since there's a need to give the audience what they expect.

Yes, I can totally see that as well. Yes, they wrote to the pop culture cliche of Kirk, but since '09 Kirk had a different background due to the lack of his father's influence, it doesn't bug me too much that he's cockier in general. I would like to see him mature a bit more, though.
 
I think that's the important point. This is a different Kirk. Of course he acts differently.
 
For all intents and purposes the Abrams Trek movies are set in an alternate universe. Expecting Abrams Kirk to act exactly like Prime Kirk is just not going to happen. The Mirror Universe Kirk was nothing like Prime Kirk. Same thing with The Intendant and Major Kira. They've had different life experiences to make them who they are. I don't think Abrams Kirk and Prime Kirk have had as drastically different experiences as Prime Kirk and Mirror Kirk but they are different individuals. Abrams Trek is not a prequel. Prime Kirk never became captain of the Enterprise fresh out of the academy, his dad was not killed during a battle with a Romulan ship from the future, he wasn't resurrected by super soldier blood and so on. The more these movies go on the less alike these characters are going to be.
 
I accept the "official" time as valid. Everything else, including the second-guessing, is silly:

First five-year mission (TOS & TAS): 2265-2270
2 1/2 years of Kirk not doing anything; meanwhile, Enterprise is undergoing an 18-month refit
Events of TMP takes place: 2273.
Kirk assumes command for second 5-year mission: 2273-2278.
Enterprise becomes a training vessel sometime between the years 2279-2285
Events of WOK takes place, events of TSS takes place shortly after.
Kirk and crew return to Earth after spending sometime on Vulcan; the events of TVH takes place: 2286.

Nice and neat. The only thing that COULD be questionable is when the Enterprise became a training vessel; did it undergo a refit during this time? Also, yeah, Kirk should have been a "Commodore" in TMP, then an Admiral, IMO.
 
I accept the "official" time as valid. Everything else, including the second-guessing, is silly
But consider how much is and isn't "official." We know that Kirk is Chief of Operations, hasn't log a starhour in 2½ years, and it's 15 years between Spaceseed and TWOK.

We have no clear indication of the time period between the end of the 5 years mission and TMP, or what Kirk was doing between the end of the mission and becoming Chief of Operations, or when he became a Admiral.

Was there even a 5 year mission (with Kirk) following TMP?

My own (completely) conjectured timeline ...

http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/a-tmp-what-if.267913/page-2#post-10850077

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Kind of strange that Kirk would be made the Chief of Operations when he was the most Junior of the Admiralty Ranks, but his service record can explain that even if they couldn't skip too many ranks for him.
 
My conjecture is that Chief of Operations in Starfleet is a different job title from Chief of Operations in the US Navy. TMP makes Admiral Nogura sound more like the (traditional) Chief of Operations.

Perhaps Nogura was the current "Starfleet Commander in Chief," but didn't hold the title of Chief of Operations.
 
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ST:TMP in theory followed the organizational chart from the Star Fleet Technical Manual (a source for many details in the movie, and basically the only published work available for the purpose), with Chief of SF Ops one rung down from Chief of Staff, SF Command, and sharing that position with Chief Tactician, Chief of Logistics, Chief of Personnel and Inspector General. But none of that was explicit in the movie, of course.

If we want to stick with Franz Joseph's manual, his chart features lower positions such as "Chief of Fleet Operations Readiness"; perhaps Kirk abbreviated his previous posting?

Timo Saloniemi
 
But consider how much is and isn't "official." We know that Kirk is Chief of Operations, hasn't log a starhour in 2½ years, and it's 15 years between Spaceseed and TWOK.

And even that "official" timeline cheats here & there. TWO different characters in TWOK say that it's been 15 years since "Space Seed," but according to the Okuda timeline, it's been 18 years.

The Okudas did a great job with the timeline overall, but it's foolish to pretend that it's flawless.
 
The Okudas did a great job with the timeline overall, but it's foolish to pretend that it's flawless.

Yeah, I never really understood their timing with movies II - V. II & III are supposed to be 2285, IV is 2286, and V is 2287. That just seems too stretched out to me based on what we actually saw on screen. I think they got stuck by the Nimbus III reference... that's a place where their "rules" of every date reference being an exact number of Earth years hurt them. It would have been easy to move V up a bit by assuming rounding or Romulan years or something.

If it had been up to me, I would have put TMP as far as possible after TOS, just to fit all the changes and the actors' ages better. Ten years would have been good (as I believe someone mentioned upthread), but then there's a bit of a problem with "Cause & Effect" because it showed the TWOK uniforms in use as early as 2278. So maybe 2277 for TMP? Then have II - V all take place in the same year. VI seems fine where it is, but the intro to VII would then have worked better as 2295, which I believe was actually referenced on some pre-production artwork.
 
That just seems too stretched out to me based on what we actually saw on screen.

Indeed, but it could still work just fine. ST4:TVH would benefit from being a relatively long adventure - that is, from there being quite a long gap between the court session and the eventual launch of the E-A. That alone would allow for the three movies to take place in three different years, despite there being dialogue in each about mere months passing.

And I can see where the Okudas were coming from regarding Nimbus III. It's not as if such a place would have been founded immediately after "Balance of Terror" - the Romulans remained thoroughly hostile till the very end of TOS, after all. So for its age to be rounded up to twenty rather than fifteen years, tomfoolery like above would be welcome.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Bingo. And there's also that wonderful revisionist history of Kirk committing a "blatant violation" of the Prime Directive at the end of the 5YM. TOS Kirk really wasn't the rulebreaker that the cliched fan stereotype paints him as.

Did Kirk think outside the box and come up with ingenious solutions? Absolutely! Did he routinely disobey orders? Not really. And on the the rare occasions that he did ( like in "Amok Time"), it was usually his last resort, not his first.

So yeah, I don't tend to put much stock in what VOY writers had to say about Kirk or the 5YM. They don't understand the character at all, IMO.

I don't understand your reference here of revisionist history being put in play. Wasn't the explanation of the incident that Icheb describes, only explained in Forgotten History and nowhere else in canonical work? If so, how can a canonical reference be refuted or even really challenged by a story about it in a non-canonical piece? Perhaps you're using this "example" as a lead-in to the rest of your argument, rather than disputing the provenance of that specific action itself. I don't argue with the tenets of your middle phrase, but you might have used another situation to illustrate the contention. I don't believe that Kirk was mentioned in Voyager much at all and the few citations I remember didn't cast him in a negative light, but just placed his method of command in the context of the state of Starfleet as it then existed. Not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but the last section of your statement doesn't really withstand scrutiny, if for no other reason than the lack of substance to support it. It seems more of a general opinion about said writers that you've dovetailed into the statement, perhaps to avoid making it sound like a general screed.
 
I don't understand your reference here of revisionist history being put in play.

Kirk didn't commit 'blatant violations" of the Prime Directive in TOS. VOY said that he did. That's revisionist history.

Watch TOS again. More often than not, Kirk is putting things right again after they got screwed up by someone else. A Piece of the Action, Return of the Archons, Bread and Circuses, and Patterns of Force are all about Kirk restoring the natural order of things.

I don't believe that Kirk was mentioned in Voyager much at all and the few citations I remember didn't cast him in a negative light...

Janeway saying something along the lines of "Of course, they'd all be thrown out of Starfleet today..." in a matter-of-fact tone was most assuredly negative. It came off as falsely superior and smug, and it struck me as supremely disrespectful of both the characters in-universe, and of TOS from a real-world perspective. It was remarkably tone-deaf in an episode that was supposedly about paying tribute to TOS on the 30th anniversary. After all, if it wasn't for TOS, none of those actors or writers would have jobs.

It seems more of a general opinion about said writers that you've dovetailed into the statement, perhaps to avoid making it sound like a general screed.

I try not to go off on VOY as a general rule of thumb, but since you seem to want me to, I'll be blunt: VOY was a pretty horribly written, acted, and produced show, and I consider it and ENT largely responsible for modern Trek's decline. YMMV, of course, but that's my opinion.
 
Kirk didn't commit 'blatant violations" of the Prime Directive in TOS.

How could you tell? We only gradually learned what the PD means. And when we did, it became fairly obvious that despite all of Kirk's self-gratulatory doubletalk, what he was doing when Kirkifying native cultures was criminal.

Even back in the day, it shouldn't have been difficult to see that the average human government or population would frown on its representatives murdering foreign leaders and imposing a new order they considered more "natural" or "original". Or were American audiences an exception? The show was about soldiers deposing governments or trying to extinguish species more often than not. Typically with the despicable conceit of them arranging themselves in a "self-defense" situation first...

supremely disrespectful of both the characters in-universe, and of TOS from a real-world perspective

Naah. It's just fashionable (and already was in the 1990s) to have bad guys as protagonists. And Janeway made Kirk badder than ever!

After all, if it wasn't for TOS, none of those actors or writers would have jobs.

Hmh? Surely they'd have a shot at better jobs with more creative license if they weren't stuck with this specific franchise.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Kirk didn't commit 'blatant violations" of the Prime Directive in TOS. VOY said that he did. That's revisionist history.

Either you didn't understand or didn't read my comment on the specific citation in Voyager that you brought up in the first place. I only mentioned one of the examples that Icheb gave in his report, but in fact all three reference races and supposed incidents that never occurred in canon, one of which that was detailed in a novel only. Instead of repeating yourself, explain how it's possible to revise the history of something that never happened in canon, the continuity that you're defending.

Watch TOS again. More often than not, Kirk is putting things right again after they got screwed up by someone else. A Piece of the Action, Return of the Archons, Bread and Circuses, and Patterns of Force are all about Kirk restoring the natural order of things.

I've seen them and agree with you on the premises. But again, Voyager never disputed actual events as presented on TOS.

Janeway saying something along the lines of "Of course, they'd all be thrown out of Starfleet today..." in a matter-of-fact tone was most assuredly negative. It came off as falsely superior and smug, and it struck me as supremely disrespectful of both the characters in-universe, and of TOS from a real-world perspective. It was remarkably tone-deaf in an episode that was supposedly about paying tribute to TOS on the 30th anniversary. After all, if it wasn't for TOS, none of those actors or writers would have jobs.

Yes, she did recite that dialogue. But as put in context given the entire reference below, IMO her overall meaning wasn't restricted to those bald words, and in fact, is fairly nuanced. In seeing it again now (I just played it), I frankly don't sense a hint of condescension, disrespect, or dismissiveness. She presents it to Kim as a history lesson that I think is properly mindful of the differences in the eras, but especially of the manifest dangers that were present earlier . I don't take the last line as a token throwaway either, but as spoken, one that has the inflection of tribute that to you seems so shockingly lacking. But as you say at the end, we all view things through a slightly different prism, but in the sake of forthrightness, I have to admit that our opinions on Voyager itself vary quite significantly.

JANEWAY: It was a very different time, Mister Kim. Captain Sulu, Captain Kirk, Dr. McCoy. They all belonged to a different breed of Starfleet officer. Imagine the era they lived in. The Alpha Quadrant still largely unexplored. Humanity on verge of war with Klingons. Romulans hiding behind every nebula. Even the technology we take for granted was still in its early stages. No plasma weapons, no multiphasic shields. Their ships were half as fast.
KIM: No replicators, no holodecks. You know, ever since I took Starfleet history at the academy, I always wondered what it would be like to live in those days.
JANEWAY: Space must have seemed a whole lot bigger back then. It's not surprising they had to bend the rules a little. They were a little slower to invoke the Prime Directive, and a little quicker to pull their phasers. Of course, the whole bunch of them would be booted out of Starfleet today. But I have to admit, I would have loved to ride shotgun at least once with a group of officers like that.

I try not to go off on VOY as a general rule of thumb, but since you seem to want me to, I'll be blunt: VOY was a pretty horribly written, acted, and produced show, and I consider it and ENT largely responsible for modern Trek's decline. YMMV, of course, but that's my opinion.
 
JANEWAY: Of course, the whole bunch of them would be booted out of Starfleet today
I think the important word in that is "today." It isn't that Kirk broke the Prime Directive of his own time, but that he wasn't following the Prime Directive as it stood a century later.

The supposed blatant violations were most likely well within Kirk authority to operate given the (then) current Prime Directive.

The 24th century "PC" interpetation of let them all die so we won't be seen to look bad didn't exist a century before. From observation the PD is hardly craved in stone and does change periodically.

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