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Insurrection vs Nemesis

Of the TNG cast films, it always seems to come down to these two for the worst of the TNG Trek films. I love Trek and I know everyone on here does as well obviously, but it is sometimes fun to nitpick and these two deserve it! I have only seen them both once and I thought INS was worse, but I am thinking of purchasing them and wanted to know which one was worse from the experts.:klingon:

INS feels like a bad 2-part TNG episode.
NEM is a joke with a clone that in no way resembles Picard whatsoever.

Which one is worse and why?

I hate the Baku Village and it's people.

They all looked insipid and refugees from some Aryan redneck inbreed incest club.They just stuck out like sore thumbs and the plot hole was just so huge.

600 inhabitants need a whole fogging planet?

No rooms on the whole fogging planet for their Sona brothers?

if you just had 600 people you would not even notice they were there....
 
I think both are awful. But I agree that NEM is worse.

INS, indeed, feels more like a weak two-part episode from the show. I was actually rather excited by the idea of Picard standing up against Starfleet. But it turns out all he's doing is standing up to a moronic admiral.
The Baku and their village were (I agree there with others) really, really annoying. It's Trek's typical portrayal of a the perfect world - everybody just running around all day having fun in the sun. I've simply never found that to be the least bit convincing the way it's portrayed here.

Also, instead of interesting character moments all we seem to get are lame jokes at the expense of the characters - either because it makes them look silly (the whole 'boobs' thing) or because they seem out of character (the whole shuttle thing with Data and Picard).

The villains really aren't very interesting, I think, which is a real shame since they had Abraham as the main villain. One of the problems, I think, is that they're simply too one dimensional. They're essentially bad and power hungry, and that's it. Or at least that's how they're portrayed throughout the film. It would have been IMHO much, much more interesting had we known more about their history with the Baku from the start rather than getting little more than an afterthought on the subject later on in the film.

Another problem I have is that I just don't find them very attractive visually. I know they're not supposed to look good. But somehow they end up being repulsive in a way that simply makes me not want to see the film.
And, yes, the joystick was really, really bad.

INS was one of very, VERY few movies I almost walked out on. I tend to be very patient at the cinema. Which is why, so far, I never actually walked out.

Now, I was wise enough (for my own good) not to go see NEM at the theater. Because it probably would have been a really hot contender for a film I WOULD have walked out on.

I don't know if NEM is just a little worse or a lot worse than INS, but I do feel it is worse. And that's quite an achievement since, at the time, I couldn't really imagine how things could get much worse than INS.

There are so many problems in NEM, really, so I'll just try to list what I felt stuck out most.
For one, Shinzon didn't look or (more importantly) feel like Picard one bit. I think that's really important because anything that could, potentially, have been interesting about Picard encountering himself or a person he could have been totally falls apart because of it. In other words, one of the major character building blocks of the movie doesn't work one bit, I think.

Also, as others have pointed out, the whole 'plan' doesn't make much sense at all. When they got Picard's DNA to create the clone he basically was a nobody. So why pick him and go to all the trouble of cloning him? The whole plan is based on so many 'ifs' and 'whens' and 'possiblys' that it comes off looking plain silly - which is the last thing I consider the Romulans to be.

Also, the Romulans do not strike me as the kind who would let someone like Shinzon rise to the kind of power he achieves. They simply wouldn't. They're too smart for that, and they're too bent on control and power to let that happen. Even if you figure in the blow to the Tal Shiar back in DS9's third season (which you don't have to since the movies hardly ever bothered recognizing the show anyway ;)) I think it just doesn't work. It seems out of character for the Romulans IMHO.

Speaking of being out of character, that's really one of the hallmarks of this film I think. To me, anyway, nobody in the film really feels like the crew we came to know from TNG. Picard, in particular, strikes me as way out of character. I don't mind Starfleet having dune buggies (though I don't know why they'd have them in the first place). But I do feel Picard racing around in one like a 16 year old just does not work, plain and simple.

And the way the whole Riker and Troi business is played is just, uh, cringe inducing, I feel. The whole wedding is not about the whole thing being a special occasion - it's about cheap laughs, really. And that makes it many things but certainly not a special occasion.

In terms of the story, again, there's a very important element I think simply doesn't make much sense, and that's B4. Again, this is a plan based on so many 'ifs' that, really, only a moron would even consider it.
What's worse is that the crew of the flagship actually falls for it. They went through the whole thing with Lore, so why on earth would they just happily reactivate B4? Didn't they ever think, even for a moment, that they might be getting themselves into trouble YET AGAIN?

In the end, it actually turns out that the whole thing is even worse than it initially seems. Not only is it an unconvincing plot point, it's also setup for one of the most disappointing character deaths since it's basically saying, Data's dead - but not really!

It's not surprising, then, that Data's death (and I'll leave it after this) has no emotional impact whatsoever. It certainly had none for me.
For one, his death seems avoidable the way it's filmed (I don't remember the details, but that's what I remember thinking at the time). And secondly, B4 guts any kind of true emotional payoff (or fallout, if you will) from the death.

So, to conclude: I think that NEM is worse than INS. I also think this is quite an 'achievement'.
 
I'm watching Insurrection right as I type I find that its definately the worst of the two and of the Trek movies in toto. Look, at the end of the day I have watched Nemesis more times then Insurrection. Hell, the latter had so little going for it, it took me weeks after its release date for me to see it at the cinema, which is a first for me and a Trek film (seeing Abrams Trek on its first day, I went to the premieres of FC and Nem, saw Generations & TUC on the first day and so on). Nothing about it excites. Nothing of any consequence happens to the main characters. The story is bland. The humour is awful. The special effects are rubbish and worse, if you think about the technical improvements at the time, than Star Trek V. The set design is mediocre (well, at least those that were new for the movie). Nemesis has an awful villain and the way Data's death was handled was a crime. But I put that partly down to Berman's awful choice of director. Stuart Baird is an outstanding editor, but he was never a director. Nemesis, like Star Trek V, was a film that could have worked with a few changes, for the former a different director, for the latter more money and more freedom for Shatner. Insurrection on the other hand was dead as soon as the script was handed in. It's a corpse thats been reanimated badly. That's the only way I can look at it. I can think of only two moments I like from Insurrection, the scene where Geordi looks at a sunset and when Picard declares "keep hold of this moment". The rest is a not so finely polished turd.
 
Justtoyourleft, you made some great comments there.

With all the faults of these movies, I would have forgiven quite a bit if:

1. In Insurrection, the Ba'ku were worthy of saving. In the movie they just come across as arrogant stuck up fools. Totally ruins the movie for me.

2. In Nemesis, if they had kept the whole Data/B4 out AND if Data hadn't died. That ruined Nemesis for me.

The biggest problem with these movies is that they weren't "epic" enough. They needed to do an epic story, something on the lines of Species 8247 attacking the Alpha Quadrant.
 
The TNG movies, except for FC maybe, never felt 'epic' enough. They felt like TV episodes on the big screen. I would have liked to have seen them pay more money for once and show us something that couldn't have been done on TV. DS9 had better space battles than TNG on the big screen for gods sake!
 
The biggest problem with these movies is that they weren't "epic" enough. They needed to do an epic story, something on the lines of Species 8247 attacking the Alpha Quadrant.

But then they would have had to invent a whole new species... unless you mean Species 8472. ;)
 
The TNG movies, except for FC maybe, never felt 'epic' enough. They felt like TV episodes on the big screen. I would have liked to have seen them pay more money for once and show us something that couldn't have been done on TV. DS9 had better space battles than TNG on the big screen for gods sake!
I wouldn't say that. The Nemesis battle was pretty impressive IMO, and far better than what DS9 managed on its TV budget. I only really felt that it was INS that didn't stand out in any way from an episode. It was just "meh" personified.
 
But then they would have had to invent a whole new species... unless you mean Species 8472.

LOL yes thank you. But hey instead of using the Romulans (which every diehard fan has wanted to see on screen, and regular folk can associate with) they give us LOTR Orc rejects. So yes, they CAN pull species out of their collective asses :D
 
The TNG movies, except for FC maybe, never felt 'epic' enough. They felt like TV episodes on the big screen. I would have liked to have seen them pay more money for once and show us something that couldn't have been done on TV. DS9 had better space battles than TNG on the big screen for gods sake!

Paramount cheapening out. I have no idea why though, they sure didn't cheap out of any of the TOS Films except ST V, and it shows. I was just watching TUC today, and wow what a great film.
 
As depressingly disappointing as Nemesis was, my incredulity at its inaneness can be summed up by one small scene: Picard looking at the picture of himself from the Academy. Had they at least explained that there had been a genetic mutation or something whih resulted in Shinzon not really looking like Picard, it would've been a shade easier to swallow...

Nemesis did start off wonderfully, though, with a credit-less jump right into the action. The Romulan senate is assassinated, awesome opening sequence. Once they hit the dune buggy sequence though, it was all over.
 
I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Nemesis and Insurrection were flipped in the order they made the movies. I think a darker more action oriented movie like Nemesis is what audiences expected after First Contact. I am not saying I like Nemesis more just wondering what the effect on Nemesis' box office would have been had it followed First Contact. I wonder if it would have made the amount of money Insurrection made or still have bombed? And I also wonder if Insurrection might have been better received as a lighter "fun" movie after two darker movies in a row? Just thinking out loud.
 
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Nemesis. Nemesis had the makings of a brillaint movie , although it wasnt executed as well as it clould have been in some places. Inssurection felt more like ann extended episode to me.
 
I liked them both, the only film of the original ten I don't particularly like is the Final Frontier.
 
Just rewatched both recently. Insurrection felt like an average TV episode. Nemesis was very entertaining, although Shinzon never impressed me much. It's also A LOT darker than the lighter fare that is Insurrection.

Insurrection = 6/10

Nemesis = 8/10
 
For people that watched Nemesis and Insurrection and found Nemesis to be superior...

I just wonder if you guys have recently watched Wrath of Khan. Because it seems like you haven't. How you can vote a cheap, badly worked imitation of a far superior film better than just something that was bad but not a bad imitation of a previous Trek film....is just beyond me.

Nemesis disgusted me that they had the gall to think people wouldn't recognize how badly it stole from Khan.
 
Wellllllllll, maybe for you, drinking man Sisko;)

I applaud bad results from a decent original idea over a poorly done remake of an idea.
 
Insurrection was okay. Nemesis was one insult after another. The climax of stupidity coming when Picard pulls down the stick to impale Shinzon. The ONLY way the death of Data would have worked or made sense is if Shinzon was brutally beating Picard upon Data's arrival. Then Data would actually have had a reason to be there, as Picard would have failed without him. There is NO WAY a 60 year old man can win a fight against a prime-aged clone of himself who grew up in a slave camp. That is SO STUPID and it would have made SO MUCH more sense if Data had actually saved Picard that I just can not IMAGINE why they had Picard win the fight.

In spite of all its plotholes, I think this movie could have been saved if Data had placed the transporter device on a horribly-battered-to-an-inch-of-his-life Picard and then carried out his sacrifice. Picard's reaction to Data's death could have been more dramatic under this scenario as well, although I disagree with some of you in that Data's death did have an emotional impact on me. May not have saved it, but it would have been SOMETHING.

Just look at Picard pull that stick down. That is ridiculous. We've got starships battling each other beautifully in space and then their big death scene, which is a stupid idea to begin with, looks like crap. Just one insult after another all to the bitter end.

Are these really the last two missions for the Next Gen crew? Is there ANY chance we may ever see Picard and the gang back on the big screen? What a sorry way to go out if not. I can handle crappy Star Trek movies, but I'll be sick if Nemesis is Next Gen's last hurrah. Kirk had a terrific send off in Undiscovered Country. Now that was a great movie.
 
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