Insurrection: Snore fest

[Khan 2.0]

The Klingons were always the main Trek threat in the eyes of the mainstream and hadn't really been used in movies since VI/25th anniversary aside their ID 'cameo' (after seeing ID i'll bet most casual/non fans would've been thinking it'd be the Klingons as the main threat in the next film)

forgot they were in Generations too - actually its reminded me of a recent interview with either Braga or Moore where they said they were given a list of stuff by the studio that HAD to be in the 1st TNG movie which included TOS cast appearances in the opening with an important role for Kirk who had to meet Picard, a humorous subplot for Data, a Khan like villain, time travel, and the Klingons..(a pity the studio didn't give the same list to Pegg when writing Beyond )

 

[Vger23]

You make sound points here - pretty much everyone I know who are not Trek fans thought that Beyond was the weakest in the trilogy (I thought it was great and on a par with the other two). I really convinced myself it was going to be a 500m+ hit but in hindsight it had a lot working against it - the inflated budget, and crowded release date I would add to the points you make.

I loved Beyond when I first saw it, but with the passage of time comes objectivity, and I now find it extraordinarily unremarkable and generic, which are the points I make against INS. There's just nothing striking or interesting about Beyond that is worth revisiting or talking about.

There's nothing I dislike about it, but there's also not much to like about it. It just sort of exists.

And your point is well taken. My best friend is a casual (very casual) Trek fan. He loved the first two Kelvin films but considers Beyond to be vile and without any redeeming qualities.

 

[jaime]

In other words they weren't indigenous, they were (at some point) warp capable, and the prime directive doesn't apply,

So, rather than breaking the prime directive, the federation are waging aggressive warfare with a sneak attack?
Is that *better* than violating the prime directive?

 

[NCC-73515]

Beyond's soundtrack, the Franklin, Spock and Bones acknowledging their mutual respect, and the Prime crew picture reveal make the movie great for fans, I think. I love it because of those elements, and hate it because of the stupid motorcycle and the sabotage scene, which screams Mars Attacks to me. When I'm calling youuuuOOOOOOOh oohoohOOOOh uhoohoohoohoohoooooo... *head explodes*

 

[Nightdiamond]

Despite Dougherty making excuses, the Prime Directive still applies to species that have warp capabilities. Forcibly removing people from their home is interference.

So, rather than breaking the prime directive, the federation are waging aggressive warfare with a sneak attack?
Is that *better* than violating the prime directive?

At this point, the Federation doesn't even have a single good legal reason to be in the Briar Patch, because the Baku settled the planet 100 years before the Federation even existed.

This is not even a criticism, it's a basic observation-the Feds have no explanation .

And without that explanation, this behavior falls into the category of imperialism, colonizing, or "might is right". Harsh labels, but to get rid of them all we need is a good legal, explanation.

 

[thribs]

That’s just mean. It isn’t as much as a snore fest as Motion Picture though.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I have a simpler theory that Beyond was simply the least appealing to the general public, who make up the majority of potential cinemagoers.

That is supported by the fact that Into Darkness attracts far better user scores than Beyond - see IMDb, Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes - and that Beyond had a substantial drop-off after the first week, suggesting poor word of mouth. Into Darkness also did hugely superior numbers on disc sales.

I knew Beyond was in trouble from the first review I heard which said it was "one for the fans" - by implication, therefore, not for the vast majority of people who go to movies.

I daresay its failure is more due to that perception, plus poor advertising, a lack of a recognisable addition to the cast (contrast the prominence of the popular Cumberbatch in Into Darkness' advertising with the unrecognisable Elba in Beyond) and a lack of engagement with viewers.

This is what I always assumed the third movie would cover - hell they could have even broken Cumberbatch out of deep freeze again - could be the Klingons who wanted him for killing they people and Kirk and co had to get him back to avoid a war or something. Instead they went for something that was a little disconnected from the first two movies, and I think the box office suffered because of that too.

As far as Beyond and the general public, I suspect the biggest issue is that most of the film involves Our Heroes stuck on a fairly-generic planet with no ship, and arguably another fairly-generic villain.

Beyond's soundtrack, the Franklin, Spock and Bones acknowledging their mutual respect, and the Prime crew picture reveal make the movie great for fans, I think. I love it because of those elements, and hate it because of the stupid motorcycle and the sabotage scene, which screams Mars Attacks to me. When I'm calling youuuuOOOOOOOh oohoohOOOOh uhoohoohoohoohoooooo... *head explodes*

I like the idea of the original 2009 being an orgin story. It was cool to see Kirk and Uhura as cadets and how they met one another. And the style- it's not as stuffy and rigid as the TNG movies .
But where I really think it screwed up is promoting Kirk to captain and the crew to senior officers at the end of the movie. For starters, it took a hit on credibility.

But the main damage was it skipped over a lot, and had more action than history building.

You'd think that over 5 or 6 movies we're supposed to gradually get to see them grow into characters as we know them. No -- the three movies were saying that this is it already. Khan, Harry Mudd, Spock and Mccoy-- all those things have happened already.

By the third movie, Kirk already wants to apply for admiral because he feels bored on the job. The Enterprise was destroyed. All of this you'd think would happen towards the end of the series ( like 7 or 8 movies?)

It seemed like the franchise had gotten so empty, the fans or casual fans bailed out on Beyond.

 

[Khan 2.0]

But where I really think it screwed up is promoting Kirk to captain and the crew to senior officers at the end of the movie. For starters, it took a hit on credibility.

Was thinking about this and maybe they could've ended it on a jokey way with it being played like he's going to be captain but it transpires hes promoted to serve as a Lt Cmdr on the Ent and then had some celebrity cameo like Hanks or Dennis Quaid appear as the new Captain (April) on the bridge with Kirk eyeing the chair and then some fun line like 'not yet son' (just to avoid that overly convenient 25y old cadet/ensign to captain literally overnight thing. we'd already seen him in the chair being called 'captain' earlier in the film anyway so that could've been the precursor of things to come) Then have the next film set 3 years later with Kirk having only recently become the youngest ever Captain in Starfleet as hes proved himself a bunch of times and is so awesome

 

[Nightdiamond]

Was thinking about this and maybe they could've ended it on a jokey way with it being played like he's going to be captain but it transpires hes promoted to serve as a Lt Cmdr on the Ent and then had some celebrity cameo like Hanks or Dennis Quaid appear as the new Captain (April) on the bridge with Kirk eyeing the chair and then some fun line like 'not yet son' (just to avoid that overly convenient 25y old cadet/ensign to captain literally overnight thing. we'd already seen him in the chair being called 'captain' earlier in the film anyway so that could've been the precursor of things to come) Then have the next film set 3 years later with Kirk having only recently become the youngest ever Captain in Starfleet as hes proved himself a bunch of times and is so awesome

I agree, I think they should have wedged something in there after the 2009 movie. This was my thinking too-- acknowledge his promotion as being too soon, and then have the issue of having to prove himself to everyone hanging over his head. They could've based a movie just on his determination to prove himself to some jerk superior officers.

Or if they just had to make him captain at the end of the first movie, show him and the rest of the crew being heavily criticized by other officers over the next few movies until it "fits right" and they prove themselves. Makes its easier to digest.

I don't think it should have been a slow over talkative movie like The Motion Picture. But I don't think the Kelvin movies lends itself to being rushed.

I just realized that after his promotion in the 2009 movie, he's basically the Kirk you've seen on the TV show, and movies all those years. There's no waiting to see him and the crew to grow into the part or have those adventures. It's already happened or happening.

Same thing with McCoy/Spock dynamic-- what you've seen in the ITD and Beyond --this pretty much is the Spock/McCoy dynamic.

It skipped over a lot.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I would've ended 09 with Spock promoted to Captain and picking Kirk as XO. That would've been a way more interesting use of the 'This isn't your parents' Trek' alternate universe concept and it would've be a far more logical endpoint for the movie as written. It was Spock who actually saved Earth, anyway, all Kirk did was convince him to try, so it makes far more sense for the competent, intelligent, experienced Spock to try to learn how to command a ship while learning when and how to rely on Kirk's less logical intuition and inspiration. Especially in light of the fact that Starfleet is literally all he has left.

 

[Khan 2.0]

Or maybe had last scene set '3 years later' (after the ceremony just being Kirk accepted into Starfleet as an Ensign or Lt.) kirk stepping on bridge as captain after working his way up (everyone looking slightly different- hairstyles/uniforms. Bridge slightly modified/darker) idk

 

[DonIago]

I felt the beginning of ID was at least lip service to the fact that Kirk was advanced too quickly, and it's worth noting that Marcus only gave Kirk back the E figuring he was going to die anyway.

 

[TommyR01D]

I think it's a real thing.

I have a theory that Trek 2009 screwed up somewhat from the very start. They rushed everything, made Kirk an instant captain at the end of the movie. They skipped over a lot and relied on action too much.

There was no growth, no sense of bonding. ITD reflected that. Enough people went to see it, but they were so divided by it, that it was the tipping point where they didn't bother much to see Beyond.

It was a ripple effect that started with the 2009 movie.

Same with the new Star Wars trilogy except Solo was the victim. The other two movies can afford the criticism because the hype and fan base is too big.

A stand alone like Solo couldn't take the hit. They're probably going to hate/dislike the next one, but they're going to go see it anyway.

This reminds me of the opening remarks from Plinkett's ROTS review:

"I think we all went to see this movie just to get it over with. I was like an obligation, like going to your stupid daughter's college graduation."​

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I felt the beginning of ID was at least lip service to the fact that Kirk was advanced too quickly, and it's worth noting that Marcus only gave Kirk back the E figuring he was going to die anyway.

From an in universe perspective, it's slightly more defensible that Marcus was just using him, but as a story choice it ultimately made the movie worse for me. Either own the illogical shit and do something with it or let it lie and move on. That half-measure shit never looks good in a final product (like the ridiculously obvious B4 backup plan just in case they were to make another movie after Data died).

 

[Mudd]

Honestly, I have very vague memories of Insurrection. I saw it once, when it was released.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Honestly, I have very vague memories of Insurrection. I saw it once, when it was released.

I had very vague memories of the film immediately after walking out of the theatre.

 

[DonIago]

Which are the two scenes in TVH with decent music?

That said, I enjoy the Gilbert and Sullivan sequence, so foo on anyone who doesn't.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I felt the beginning of ID was at least lip service to the fact that Kirk was advanced too quickly, and it's worth noting that Marcus only gave Kirk back the E figuring he was going to die anyway.

But it wasn't enough to offset how strange it was. Other than that, everyone in Starfleet seems to ignore how odd it was to promote a suspended cadet directly to captain of a ship. And about 2 years later Kirk is applying to be an admiral.

In the first film, Sulu was a nervous cadet who forgot how to get the ship into warp. In the next movie he's in command of the Enterprise after Kirk and Spock leave the ship. Apparently he is 3rd or 4th in command after the 2009 movie. Chekov commands engineering after Scotty left. Uhura is chief communications officer.

The movie was asking everyone to believe there weren't any older experienced officers on the ship at all-they needed to plug everyone into those roles so they could get on with the sequels.

This reminds me of the opening remarks from Plinkett's ROTS review:

"I think we all went to see this movie just to get it over with. I was like an obligation, like going to your stupid daughter's college graduation."​

Hah, that's the impression I get with the Star Wars sequels. A lot of fans seem really divided or critical of the last two, but the hype is too much to keep them away. It's going to be big, but I don't know what the reviews are going to be like.

 

[suarezguy]

In other words they weren't indigenous, they were (at some point) warp capable, and the prime directive doesn't apply,

The Prime Directive still does apply to warp-capable species, warp capability just means that contacting them and so revealing that aliens exist doesn't violate it.

 

[Tenacity]

because the Baku settled the planet 100 years before the Federation even existed.

the Baku sole claim to the planet and rings is they got there first?

this behavior falls into the category of imperialism, colonizing, or "might is right".

you forgot the federation telling the Baku to "get off my yard."

The Prime Directive still does apply to warp-capable species

really don't think so.

the prime directive protects primative societies from the federation itself, at some point a society ceases to be "primative." the baku ceased to be primative before they arrived on the ring world.