Great, now there's coffee all over my monitor.
I'm rethinking Geordie marrying Leah
- Thread starter CT_Phipps
- Start date
His eyes changed for First Contact and All Good Things...
Is Leah an ablest?
Visors are not sexy?
Is Leah an ablest?
Visors are not sexy?
Let's not do that
Reaching
All of them? It was going to end up killing all of them... and don't put that on the ship. The poor ship got hijacked by space weirdness, (like Data in Masks) & then forced to plunk out a lifeform, (like Troi in The Child)
All in all, at the end of the day, and for all intents & purposes, I think all of this super touchy-feely Leah Brahms hologram business is probably the Bynars' fault.
Because what Geordie did will be right in the enlightened future?
Interesting. One of the areas where humanity will regress: it will be okay to try to seduce clearly uninterested and annoyed female colleagues and lie to them.
Because what Geordi did was written into a script written 35 years ago
So we can't criticize his behavior, considering that people here say he didn't nothing wrong?
He blatantly lied. I'm sure it was frowned upon even 35 years ago.
He said what he believed were his intentions. It was his truth, about how he felt. You're scrutinizing his claim thru a modern lens, & labeling it blatant lies. Maybe he was exclusively romantically inclined, or maybe he was inclined to whatever possibilities presented themselves, but only knew how to encourage them by presenting it in a way that left both options on the table, and maybe that way of presenting was seen differently a third of a century ago, when it was written
She's clearly uncomfortable during the dinner, and you'd have to be really charitable to say Geordi was just offering "friendship." Especially after he told her it was just a work dinner.
It's interesting how Geordi's supporters gloss over all the lies he told during the episode, actually blaming Leah for them.
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Does he know why she's uncomfortable? He has no reason to think she is so because of him and his intentions, unless she tells him, which she eventually does.
I'm not saying he was only offering friendship. I'm saying he was potentially (in his own mind) offering a relationship that could be friendship or more, and that "or more" is a difficult dynamic to negotiate with someone new, but he wanted to have it on the table. It doesn't mean he's outright lying when he says he offered friendship. It means his intentions were seen differently by him.
Frankly, I prefer to be charitable when interpreting people's intentions, especially if they existed in a time when social dynamics were different.
She came on board with preconceptions about him as well, (that he was some schmuck mucking up her work) which made an awkward adversarial dynamic as well. That too could've exacerbated how he felt he needed to behave, to appeal to her (in any way) I'm not saying he's right or she's wrong, or they both didn't misread or assume. I'm saying they are humans having an awkward first encounter & charity of interpretation is IMHO a good policy.
In 1991, when the episode aired, I would have been 16. I definitely didn't think the way Geordi was carefully setting up the environment with the dimmed lighting and music was something you do when you're having a friend over for dinner. I thought (and think) it was something you do when you're trying to set up a date. As such, it's hard for me to lend much credence to the idea that Geordi was approaching Leah as a friend. He might have been willing to settle for that, but I think it's a yellow or even red flag to invite someone to your quarters for something that (to me) is pretty clearly set up to be a date with someone you have no preexisting relationship with without even making it clear that that's the intention ahead of time. If I'd been Leah and I'd walked in on that I would have gone right to, "WTF Geordi???"
And we should also bear in mind that he didn't randomly select the food as something he thought Leah might like, but rather deliberately chose something that he knew she would probably like precisely because he had prior knowledge of her.
The entire setup was artificial. A man with more integrity would have come clean before the date.
ETA: In fact, at one point during the cabin scene Geordi "trips up" and reveals that he looked at Leah's personnel file, prompting her to ask him why he would have done that. Rather than even give her a version of the truth that omits the perhaps more lurid details, Geordi full-on lies and claims it's standard procedure when guests come on board. Not a great look for you, Mr. La Forge.
And we should also bear in mind that he didn't randomly select the food as something he thought Leah might like, but rather deliberately chose something that he knew she would probably like precisely because he had prior knowledge of her.
The entire setup was artificial. A man with more integrity would have come clean before the date.
ETA: In fact, at one point during the cabin scene Geordi "trips up" and reveals that he looked at Leah's personnel file, prompting her to ask him why he would have done that. Rather than even give her a version of the truth that omits the perhaps more lurid details, Geordi full-on lies and claims it's standard procedure when guests come on board. Not a great look for you, Mr. La Forge.
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True, which is why I'm not gonna ever say anything he did was right. There's a lot of red flags about his actions, (especially the capitalizing on foreknowledge thing, to artificially gain affinity) and in fact, when presented with some of his impressions, Guinan outright tells Geordi that very thing, that he's acting on a fantasy.
He is shown to be wrong about this. He is also shown eventually apologizing for that... in some way. He also told Guinan that it needn't be romantic, & I believe that's true, even if he'd hoped for it, and was doing things to steer toward that possible potentiality, if she were interested in it. (which in itself isn't necessarily wrong, outside his godawful methods)
There's no power imbalance. She doesn't work for him, nor are they coworkers at all. They are just people... with like professional interests. However, she came there to deliberately antagonize Geordi about his work. That is also misleading him. He was told this was a professional, taking an interest in the (impressive) work he'd done, not an ambush about changes he's made to her model. If Picard had known that's why she was coming there, I doubt he would've even had her come at all. Nobody needs a dressing down from the engine designer out here.
She misled him. He misled her. It made for a bloody awkward encounter, from top to bottom, & they both eventually figure their way thru it, & apologize for each ones' areas where they'd brought prejudice to it.
I don't think it made for a sensible plot point that she'd marry him in All Good Things... But that's a separate issue, of badly written stuff they felt they needed to shoehorn into it, (because his future was otherwise pointless) & they couldn't think of anyone else, with any relevant history to do it with.
But what went down in Galaxy's Child is wildly blown out of proportion IMHO. Some of his intentions & impressions are wrong & so were some of hers, & it all comes out that way in the end.
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I guess I don't consider them equivalent because her issues were essentially work-related, while his preconceptions about her (which he knew or should have known were preconceptions) were personal in nature. I also think he actively tried to manipulate her, while she may have been abrasive and such (as coworkers sometimes are), but I don't think she ever lied to nor tried to manipulate him.
It seems to me as though it would be very unprofessional to tell the person who designed the E's engines that she couldn't inspect them because she had a bad attitude. That's a bit reminiscent of how Our Heroes, supposedly the best of the best, showed either an inability or unwillingness to adapt to and work with Captain Jellico.
It seems to me as though it would be very unprofessional to tell the person who designed the E's engines that she couldn't inspect them because she had a bad attitude. That's a bit reminiscent of how Our Heroes, supposedly the best of the best, showed either an inability or unwillingness to adapt to and work with Captain Jellico.
But it's the false pretense that matters. It's not work related. She doesn't work there. It's a professional courtesy to have her there. She is a guest. This was not presented as her being there to judge or condemn, or even inspect (like Jellico) what he's done to the engines, as she was clearly there to do. He doesn't have to answer for anything to her. It was presented as a collaboration of interests. She herself admits that the work is very personal to her. She has preemptively vilified this guy, & he has preemptively glamorized her. That's also personal, even if it's about work.
Was what he did more of a personal affront? Sure, maybe. It certainly has worse overtones of invasiveness, but his behavior didn't happen in a vacuum either. Maybe he'd have behaved differently, had she not stepped off the pad & immediately took a shot at him, & put him on the defensive, (also manipulative) trying to improvise a way to be liked or even respected by her. Now he's oafishly trying any trick in his hat, including fungilli nonsense, & we're already sinking fast, cuz this is Geordi's absolute worst skill.
There's no way you'd ever hear me say Geordi isn't inept at social dynamics, but he isn't as malevolent as everybody carries on in these discussions either, & it all didn't just fall out of the sky either. An unfortunate series of stupid stimuli gave him bad impressions that he dumbly turned into ill-advised intentions,
And was made to realize it eventually, & make amends, & to her credit, she graciously chose to smooth it over, by echoing a mutual mea culpa sentiment.
It really sounds like what you're saying is essentially, "Sure, Geordi was a creep, but Leah was a jerk to him too, so she deserved a bit of what she dished out."
Again, the folks on the E-D are persistently claimed to be the best of the best. I don't see much of that in Geordi in this episode, especially if he can't even take some hard questions about his engine modifications without getting his ego bruised. So Leah was kind of a jerk in the way she asked the questions, and clearly was taking it personally? Maybe take the high road on it, and also the hint that she's not into you?
Hell, I've had to deal with worse coworkers myself. That's part of my job. In some cases I tried to have a dialogue with them to figure out how we could work together more effectively, but I sure as hell never tried to gaslight them, and if I'd known things about their personal lives beforehand I'd like to think I never would have used the information I had subversively.
Again, the folks on the E-D are persistently claimed to be the best of the best. I don't see much of that in Geordi in this episode, especially if he can't even take some hard questions about his engine modifications without getting his ego bruised. So Leah was kind of a jerk in the way she asked the questions, and clearly was taking it personally? Maybe take the high road on it, and also the hint that she's not into you?
Hell, I've had to deal with worse coworkers myself. That's part of my job. In some cases I tried to have a dialogue with them to figure out how we could work together more effectively, but I sure as hell never tried to gaslight them, and if I'd known things about their personal lives beforehand I'd like to think I never would have used the information I had subversively.
That's a substantial leap from me saying I understand something, enough to extend some empathy, to me excusing it, which I've been very careful to word things here so am I am not, if that matters, & neither did the episode really. That I've called attention to her behavior doesn't either imho. It's just fleshing out the entire landscape of social dynamics, with which to empathize.
Could they have gone harder about attrition for him? Sure. Is it the end of the world that they didn't? Not really IMHO, because I only maintain that this outrage on him is overblown, when these threads always devolve into a handful of commenters hollering "Creep! Predator!" & a mere few saying, "but maybe...." and eventually the counter is "You're a creep/predator apologist" even though we're just reconciling the totality of his character, beyond a sentence of dialog or 2.
Geordi is by & large a pretty ok guy, but what he ain't great at is social dynamics. He couldn't even get along with Scotty at 1st. SCOTTY! HTF you mess that up? He fumbles people all the time, for a myriad of reasons, not all of which are entirely on him, albeit this one is one of the worst of his fumbles & his blame is greater than elsewhere, but not IMHO utterly condemnable
I honestly don't understand how Leah's and Geordi's behavior can be put on the same ethical level.
Was Leah a little rude? Sure, no more so than the usual male guest star. The difference is that she's a woman. And at least she was honest with Geordi.
A detail that Geordi's apologists, however, gloss over: throughout the episode, Geordi lies. He lies when he invites her to dinner, he lies when she asks how he knew how she wore her hair before, he lies when he tells her that what he wanted to offer her was friendship. This isn't "social incompetence." It's bad faith. And he NEVER ADMITS HIS MISTAKES. It's Leah who's forced (by the writers) to apologize.
When Leah (rightly) explains how she feels after discovering her holographic copy, GEORDI ATTACKS HER. He blames the victim. He deflects. He doesn't respond to her accusations.
Geordi: "I've shown you courtesy, and respect". Of course, Geordi, it's definitely a sign of courtesy and respect to deceitfully invite a coworker to a romantic dinner.
Was Leah a little rude? Sure, no more so than the usual male guest star. The difference is that she's a woman. And at least she was honest with Geordi.
A detail that Geordi's apologists, however, gloss over: throughout the episode, Geordi lies. He lies when he invites her to dinner, he lies when she asks how he knew how she wore her hair before, he lies when he tells her that what he wanted to offer her was friendship. This isn't "social incompetence." It's bad faith. And he NEVER ADMITS HIS MISTAKES. It's Leah who's forced (by the writers) to apologize.
When Leah (rightly) explains how she feels after discovering her holographic copy, GEORDI ATTACKS HER. He blames the victim. He deflects. He doesn't respond to her accusations.
Geordi: "I've shown you courtesy, and respect". Of course, Geordi, it's definitely a sign of courtesy and respect to deceitfully invite a coworker to a romantic dinner.
Wasn't it established before this episode that he is very bad at socializing with women he's interested in? Something with a violin player on a beach?
He's awkward, overwhelmed, leaning into creepiness, but he's not a bad guy, not a villain in the episode. Clumsy and all, yes, but he never had bad intentions.
He's awkward, overwhelmed, leaning into creepiness, but he's not a bad guy, not a villain in the episode. Clumsy and all, yes, but he never had bad intentions.
"MEESA FIXA WARP DRIVE!"Wasn't it established before this episode that he is very bad at socializing with women he's interested in? Something with a violin player on a beach?
He's awkward, overwhelmed, leaning into creepiness, but he's not a bad guy, not a villain in the episode. Clumsy and all, yes, but he never had bad intentions.
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