If you were Dukat, would you have joined the Dominion?

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Obviously things worked out badly for the Cardassians in the end, but watching 'Return To Grace' the other day I found a great deal of sympathy for our favourite spoonhead..

If your society was beaten, and you had Maquis and Klingons attacking you from every side, and your health system and economy were on the brink of collapse, would you not strike a deal with the Dominion?

I would, as everything we knew about them indicated that if you didn't give them any trouble they'd pretty much leave you to your own devices.

Also the Dominion drove the invaders from Cardassian soil, upgraded the Cardassian fleet, and (from what we can tell) helped feed the people and get their health system back on its feet (certainly we never heard any complaints on this score, even in the final days of the war where Damar's complaints centred mostly around the Breen, Cardie casualties and territorial concessions).

The alliance also had the added 'spite' factor of giving the enemy of the Klingons a foothold near their territory.

What do you think, if you had been Dukat, seen that your government was unwilling to even fight and that your society was on the verge of collapse,would you have taken this seemingly only way out? Or would you have chosen to do something wild and made overtures to try and join the Federation instead? Would the Federation have them for that matter?

 

[Saxman1]

Joining the Dominion: "Hitler - Germany, World War II, fascism." At the end the female changeling made it pretty clear that once the Federaton and allies were defeated, the Dominion would impose their "order" everywhere, which pretty much meant the systematic genocide of all non-Dominion races. After Hitler was done with the Jews, the Poles (he managed to get a pretty good head start on them, unfortunately) were next and so on.

Cardassia was not a society happy to be conquered or cowtow, as Ducet made pretty clear. In the end, they'd have suffered a genocide if the Federation, Kingons and allies had fallen.

I really think the Federation would have taken any help/allies it could have gotten at that point and used whatever resouces it had at its disposal to build up the Cardies.

 

[Dimension11]

Thrawn, u should understand why the Cardie's were in such a bad shape to begin with. What you're saying is that if Iraq's economy is so bad, would they ally with terrorists? Well, they started the gulf war, prior to that the US and Iraq were fast friends.

 

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Dimension11 said:
Thrawn, u should understand why the Cardie's were in such a bad shape to begin with. What you're saying is that if Iraq's economy is so bad, would they ally with terrorists? Well, they started the gulf war, prior to that the US and Iraq were fast friends.

I'm truly baffled by that post, Iraq didn't allie with anyone as far as I'm aware?

As for the Cardies, they were attacked by a founder inspired Klingon Empire for no reason, they didn't really deserve anything.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Yeah, actually it was a good move. For Dukat, not necessarily for Cardassia. Remember at the time, Dukat was trying to shoehorn himself back into being accepted by Cardassian society (and his grievance was legit; they booted him simply for the sin of loving his daughter and not wanting to KILL her ) The only way to be accepted was to be in charge and the only way to be in charge was to restore Cardassia to its former glory. Dukat was taking the only option open to him, considering that he would never have been able to live in exile, Garak-like, for the rest of his life.

And the Dominion alliance would have turned out well. It was Damar who botched it up, by bailing JUST as the tide was turning in the Dominions' favor. Ultimately that was Dukat's fault, for going insane after Damar killed the one person who could justify everything Dukat had done (and no doubt felt guilty about, deep down somewhere in his subconscious - that explains the madness). So I guess it really WAS Damar's fault all along.

What a mess!

At the end the female changeling made it pretty clear that once the Federaton and allies were defeated, the Dominion would impose their "order" everywhere, which pretty much meant the systematic genocide of all non-Dominion races.

Well, you're just wrong. The Dominion contains many races other than Founder, Vorta and Jem'hadar, and if everyone behaves themselves, nobody need fear extermination. The Dosi for example seem to live happily under Dominion rule. The Dominion is not Nazi Germany, it's more like ancient Rome, where many species can prosper as long as they don't rock any boats. The Cardassians could have fit is as junior partners and done very well for themselves.

Damar's betrayal was motivated by his personal animosity towards Weyoun and his hurt ego when the Breen were brought in (perfectly legitimate move, they were needed at that point in the war) plus his understandable angst at the way the Dominion was treating Cardassian troops as Jem-type cannon fodder (and it wasn't very wise in all things of the Founder not to take that into consideration!) If Damar had been a cold-blooded strategist, he would have recognized that hanging on just a little bit longer would reap rewards but that just wasn't who he was. The Founder was the opposite: so focused on strategy that she couldn't see the dangerously "irrational" Cardassian right in front of her.

 

[Amaris]

I'm still conflicted about Dukat. On one hand, he was an opportunistic, sadistic soldier who thrived on power and domination. Appearing to Bajoran migrants as almost god-like in his rule over them (or at least thinking he did). His ego was enormous, his guile was obvious, but at the same time, he was a loving father and actually did like Bajorans. Well, Bajoran women anyway. The point is, he was a very proud man, and I don't think he would bow to anyone, changeling or no. So I would have to say that no, if I were Dukat, I would not have joined the Dominion.

-J.

 

[JM1776]

Well, you're just wrong.

About all non-Dominion races? I have to agree with you. As to the Cardassians specifically, though ...

... I seem to recall the female Founder telling Garak in no uncertain terms the entire Cardassian race was dead the minute they made their attempt on the Founders' homeworld---that it was just a matter of time. I find it highly unlikely that they would not have used Cardassia to its dregs and then disposed of the desiccated husk. You'd be one of the first to remind us that the Founders invariably keep their word, after all, and they had vowed the extermination of the Cardassian people. What is said by one Founder is said by (and binding upon) them as a whole, after all. Considering her decision to attempt genocide in the wake of their rebellion, well ... the idea that it would have turned out well for Cardassia is highly questionable at best, and when viewed objectively almost laughable.

I have to say, though, you're definitely an accomplished Dominion apologist---as a good Vorta should be. :thumbsup:

 

[Dimension11]

Grand Admiral Thrawn said:
I'm truly baffled by that post, Iraq didn't allie with anyone as far as I'm aware?

Actually it's little known history that Saddam and the US were fast friends before the gulf war, even going so far as for the US to supply weapons & planes to iraq. Same thing with afganistan.

 

[tafkats]

Off to DS9 ...

 

[Timo]

Much would depend on whether Dukat had reliable intelligence on the Founder's promise to make all Cardassians so very, very dead. Who would he trust? If the message was delivered at all, it would have been brought by Garak, a man Dukat wouldn't let within disruptor range on a good day. Okay, Starfleet would have gotten their version, which Dukat would have had access to - but that version would also have originated from Garak, and from Odo, who had an obvious axe to grind with the Founders, at least from where Dukat was looking.

Apart from that single promise, other evidence of Dominion use of genocide was lacking. It was hinted at in "Jem'Hadar" but in the context of a major ruse. Nonlethal genocide of sorts (a disease that only kills people past their child-bearing age) in "The Quickening" would support the point that it pays to stay on the good side of the Dominion.

Incidentally,

...even going so far as for the US to supply weapons & planes to Iraq.

Nope, no major weapons and definitely no planes. Just money and political and industrial support, so that the Iraqi would have an easier time accessing Soviet or French weapons from the int'l market.

Which is on-topic, sort of. Who else would ever have agreed to sell weapons to Cardassia if not the Dominion? I could see the Romulans giving covert support to the enemies of the Klingons, but it's not as if the Central Command ever had access to high-tech weapons from any source. Apart from a seriously overengineered AI bolted onto a primitive antimatter missile...

I could also see Romulans delivering technological knowhow that would allow the Cardassian Union to develop and manufacture those metagenic weapons so feared in "Chain of Command" - another good Iraq analogy.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BrotherBenny]

If I were Dukat I would certainly not have joined the Dominion. If I was thinking sensbily, I'd've known that it would make enemies of almost every major power this side of the wormhole, and that Cardassia would not win an x-front war.

But Cardassia was too militaristic to survive. The growing dissident movement became even bigger after the total annihilation of the Obsidian Order, and narrow-minded Central Command could not possibly deal with such a wide-spread rebellion. The dissidents overthrew the Central Command and the formerly powerless Detapa Council became a token government.

The Klingons ran roughshod over outlying Cardassian colonies and Dukat, after saving his daughter and effectively being demoted to a freighter captain, decided that it was his destiny to make the Klingons pay for every kilometre taken. But that wasn't enough for him and he wanted to make Cardassia strong again, so that nothing like the Klingon invasion would ever happen again.

His only out was the Dominion because he believed brute force solved more than diplomacy. Had he asked the Federation for help (and he would have received that help), the Dominion would not have had a beachhead and the war might not have happened.

Dukat is responsible for billions of deaths.

 

[Timo]

Why would the Federation have helped Dukat against the Klingons? They were important UFP allies, worth every concession the UFP could ever make.

Had Dukat been satisfied with the sort of aid where Klingons get to keep what they conquer, and are allowed to harass the rest of the Union, and the Feds merely keep alive the people huddling on the remaining Cardassian planets, yeah, perhaps he might have gotten what he wanted. But that's not a solution he, or any Cardassian, could comfortably live with. The truncated Union could never have worked its way back to interstellar independence, and would have become but a vassal state to the UFP. In an unimportant corner of the galaxy to boot. After all, Bajor's vicinity was a backwater of no importance until the wormhole was found - and the Klingon conquests were between Cardassia and the wormhole! The Feds would have caved in on any demands the Klingons would wish to make on Cardassia.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BrotherBenny]

The Feds might have been able to talk the Klingons out of their invasion while giving aid to Cardassia. We'll never know.

 

[Navaros]

Saxman1 said:
Joining the Dominion: "Hitler - Germany, World War II, fascism." At the end the female changeling made it pretty clear that once the Federaton and allies were defeated, the Dominion would impose their "order" everywhere, which pretty much meant the systematic genocide of all non-Dominion races.

Not quite correct in my view, as the Dominion would conquer almost every non-Dominion race without fighting, via diplomacy, and then they would become Dominion races. With no extermination required. But yes the end is nigh for those foolish enough not to join. :thumbsup:

Absolutely I woulda joined the Dominion if I was Dukat, the Dominion is badass. Only reason they lost control of the station was due to lame magic wormhole alien tricks making a ton of their ships disappear combined with the incompetence of Dukat due to lack of focus on the war. What I'm saying is, it's not the Dominion's fault that joining made things turn out bad for the Cardies, it's Dukat's fault for mishandling the station occupation.

 

[MacLeod]

Grand Admiral Thrawn said:
Obviously things worked out badly for the Cardassians in the end, but watching 'Return To Grace' the other day I found a great deal of sympathy for our favourite spoonhead..

If your society was beaten, and you had Maquis and Klingons attacking you from every side, and your health system and economy were on the brink of collapse, would you not strike a deal with the Dominion?

I would, as everything we knew about them indicated that if you didn't give them any trouble they'd pretty much leave you to your own devices.

Also the Dominion drove the invaders from Cardassian soil, upgraded the Cardassian fleet, and (from what we can tell) helped feed the people and get their health system back on its feet (certainly we never heard any complaints on this score, even in the final days of the war where Damar's complaints centred mostly around the Breen, Cardie casualties and territorial concessions).

The alliance also had the added 'spite' factor of giving the enemy of the Klingons a foothold near their territory.

What do you think, if you had been Dukat, seen that your government was unwilling to even fight and that your society was on the verge of collapse,would you have taken this seemingly only way out? Or would you have chosen to do something wild and made overtures to try and join the Federation instead? Would the Federation have them for that matter?

There where other options open, sue for even closer ties to the UFP.

 

[Tomalak]

Saxman1 said:
Joining the Dominion: "Hitler - Germany, World War II, fascism." At the end the female changeling made it pretty clear that once the Federaton and allies were defeated, the Dominion would impose their "order" everywhere, which pretty much meant the systematic genocide of all non-Dominion races.

What rubbish. The Founders' philosophy was not genocide, but control. What you control can't hurt you. Had things gone to plan, the Cardassians would have been given responsibility over the Alpha Quadrant - no doubt with strong inducement from the Vorta and Jem'Hadar. Were the Kammera eliminated? I think not. The humans, Vulcans, Kalandrans etc would have become client races, with all independence stamped out.

Your Nazi analogy fails you too. Far from eliminating anyone who wasn't Germanic, they targeted their favoured scapegoats. The Dominion had no such scapegoat.

The only reason the Founder ordered the genocide of the Cardassians towards the end of the war was because she was dying, desperate, and felt betrayed. If they had conquered the Federation in the first few months, none of that would have occurred. Remember Damar's rebellion only came about becuase they were losing - if they had been "masters of the Alpha Quadrant", as Rusot had hoped, there would have been no rebellion.

Timo said:
I could also see Romulans delivering technological knowhow that would allow the Cardassian Union to develop and manufacture those metagenic weapons so feared in "Chain of Command" - another good Iraq analogy.

Indeed. As I recall, there were no weapons at the time of the invasion.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

The Cardassians really were backed into a corner, perhaps unfairly. Pre-Dominion, it didn't seem they had done anything worse than the Klingons or Romulans during their eras of war with the Federation.

As far as I can tell, the Federation pretty much let the Klingons and Maquis beat up on the Cardassian Union until it had no choice but to turn to the Dominion. I assume some sort of Prime Directive issue prevented Federation interference in the Klingon-Cardassian war, even though a peace brokered early on could have prevented the Dominion gaining a foothold in the AQ.

The lesson of all this seems to be that the Federation didn't really pay attention while the rest of the Quadrant ravaged a once-great power, and came to pay for it in spades. Ironically, the Cardassians paid the highest price for their attempt at resurgence.

 

[Timo]

I'm not sure we can characterize the Cardassian Union as "once-great power", though. They always seemed like bit players, easily defeated by the pinky finger of the Federation - which probably is why Gowron chose them as the target of his inaugural war. An easy victory could unite the Klingon Empire in the aftermath of the civil war and secure Gowron's position.

And many in the UFP probably wanted to see Gowron's position secured, even if it meant letting Cardassia die.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

Perhaps once-great culture would be more accurate.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

The Fed-Cardie war of the 2250's (?) was characterized as fairly brutal. While they were not up to the level of huge powers like the UFP, Klingon Empire, and Romulan Empire, they were only a step down from that. They at least gave the Feds pause, as the Federation made some pretty serious concessions during the peace process. Either the Federation Diplomatic Corps is a bunch of pushovers, or there was a very real fear of endless border skirmishing and constant civilian deaths. There would have been no redrawing of borders, no DMZ, and no Maquis if the Federation was truly able to flick them away like a dust speck.

Sure, there is no reason to think the Cardies could have actually defeated or even made serious inroads into the UFP by themselves, but they were shown to be more than a mere nuisance, too.