If you were Dukat, would you have joined the Dominion?

[Magisterfrodo]

No, Dukat was very short-sighted.
The Dominion clearly controlled everything under them with an iron fist. Dukat's plan to team up with the Dominion, defeat the Klingons and the Federation, and then somehow drive the Dominion out of Cardassia, leaving them as the lone victors, was hopelessly optimistic.

Yes, I understand the Cardassians are a proud people who had endured costly defeats and were desperate, but just a little homework on the Dominion should have clued Dukat in that this was not the answer.

 

[JM1776]

Tomalak said: The only reason the Founder ordered the genocide of the Cardassians towards the end of the war was because she was dying, desperate, and felt betrayed. If they had conquered the Federation in the first few months, none of that would have occurred.

Others see it differently.

In "Broken Link," the female Founder promises extermination of the entire Cardassian people, saying to Garak, "They're dead, you're dead, Cardassia is dead. Your people were doomed the moment they attacked us."

The intent seems clear: The Cardassians as a race will pay with their complete eradication. One might even infer (with less justification, granted) this would have eventually included the Romulans, as well, since they participated in the abortive preemptive strike during "The Die Is Cast." Then, again, perhaps the Dominion had collected intelligence conclusively demonstrating that the plan itself had originated with the Cardassians, and thus wished to exact a particularly demonstrative and definitive vengeance upon them.

Alternately, she was merely posturing---which seems highly unlikely, considering subsequent events.

Let's fast forward a few years, to "What We Leave Behind," moments after the Cardassian fleet has switched sides.

She announces, "I want the Cardassians exterminated." When Weyoun asks for specifics, she replies with, "All of them. The entire population."

Why would one order genocide in the midst of a battle the outcome of which was still in doubt, when such orders could only result in the masses rising against you (to the limited extent they could)?

Earlier, she had said, "We should've rid ourselves of the Cardassians at the first sign of rebellion." Could that be read, perhaps, "once they were more trouble than they were worth"? I say yes.

Entirely reasonable conclusion: The female Founder accelerated the Dominion's timetable for the liquidation of all Cardassians in an attempt to keep her promise.

The question at hand is this: Did she issue the orders exclusively because of the Cardassian betrayal ... or because she saw the writing on the wall, knew the Dominion could no longer win, and wished to fulfill her vow to eradicate the Cardassians while she was still able to do so?

Could it have been a combination of both?

In my opinion, a quick victory over the Federation Alliance would have resulted in its emasculation, dismemberment ... and then the excision of the Cardassians the instant they no longer served a purpose. Their world would have been cleansed and employed as a staging ground for further Alpha Quadrant expansion. Who, at that point, would have gainsaid them?

 

[Navaros]

Comparing the Female Founder's motivations with those of Hitler is quite a stretch.

The Dominion would not have exterminated any Cardassians had they won the war together. There would be no need to, the Cardassians would remain loyal servants of the Dominion. The Female Founder did not have an inherent hate for Cardassians specifically as an "inferior race that must be killed off" as Hitler did Jews. Rather she simply distrusted all solids based on good reasons (something which Hitler did not have in his hatred for Jews...) and hence would hold Cardassians to the same standard as every other solid race: join the Dominion and live in peace, or resist and be eliminated so as to not ever be able to pose a threat to the Founders.

She ordered the Cardassians eliminated only because they betrayed her, not because she had a hidden agenda to eliminate them because simply because she is a maniac (as was the case with Hitler).

 

[Good Will Riker]

No...I would not want to be Dukat. Period.

 

[JM1776]

Navaros said: Comparing the Female Founder's motivations with those of Hitler is quite a stretch.

I personally never did so. I merely assert that the Cardassians would have been liquidated no matter the outcome of the war, for the temerity of attempting to eliminate the Founders.

[If malevolence could be reduced to a simple numbers game, though {and it can't}, Hitler wouldn't even qualify as a talented amateur in comparison.]

The Dominion would not have exterminated any Cardassians had they won the war together.

As Spock would say, "Even in the Gamma Quadrant, two plus two equals four." She made the threat. She attempted to carry it out. Nothing you can present trumps those two irrefutable points. And since Occam's Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is probably correct, and we saw her do as she said she would, well .... Your position requires speculation, optimism concerning Dominion motives, and eisegetical analysis. Mine requires only that we accept what we saw and heard.

There would be no need to, the Cardassians would remain loyal servants of the Dominion.

You're ... how to put this delicately? ... quite optimistic (read that hopelessly naive) ... in my opinion, if you think the Cardassians would have remained eternally faithful. Their ambition and overweening arrogance eventually would have pushed them to attempt another elimination of the Founders and a takeover of the Dominion itself, or at the very least to expel their erstwhile masters from the Alpha Quadrant, that they might rule it at their own will.

If at this point you don't concur, I suppose we'll agree to disagree.

Dukat did what he believed best for himself and Cardassia (in that order), according to the discernment of his judgment, the limits of his wisdom ... and the scope of his hubris.

 

[DanCPA]

Yes. Cardassia was going to eventually be conquered by the Klingons if he didn't do anything. His people were defeated

 

[Gamma_Quadrant]

If I could add my two cents on the discussion of the Female Founder and her threat to the Cardassians. In my opinion, when she gave the order to wipe the Cardassians out, she was not thinking about the threat she made to Garak, but that the Cardassians had become the enemy and were atempting to thwart the Dominion's possible victory. If we're talking about that specific moment when the Cardassians began rebelling, well I'd say it was rather clear that her decision was motivated by their attack and a desire to "reply" to their little insurrection. I don't think she saw it as an opportunity to fulfill an old promise.

A better question would be "Did the Dominion plan to wipe out the Cardassians(thus fulfilling the promise) after their victory over the Alpha quadrant?" In that case, I would answer "yes". The Founder was clearly telling Garak what the Great Link had decided upon.

You know what is ironic about her saying they'd wipe out the Cardassians for their attack on the Founder's "home world"? Didn't that episode establish that it was the Founders that pushed for the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order to make those attacks, so that way they'd wipe out two "ruthless organizations"? It's kind of the Dominion's fault in that case...

As for this topic and would I join the Dominion if I were Dukat...

Well, I'm gonna guess you mean if I was in Dukat's place, as if I was Dukat, I'd be clearly insane and power hungry, not to mention egotistical. If it was me? Then no, I would not join the Dominion. Even if I was desperate(as Cardassia was), I'd have at least studied my "allies", before entering into a pact with them. Dukat, ironically enough, was far too trusting. He believed the Dominion would give the Alpha quadrant to Cardassia. Uh...didn't he think they'd want something in return for such a great gift? Something equally impressive? It was such an oversight on his part, in my opinion. What I would have done would be to get help from either the Federation or Romulus. As the Federation was too buddy-buddy with the Klingons and wouldn't step in to help, then I'd go to their nextdoor neighboors and seek Romulan help. After all, the Romulans hated the Klingons (at this point at leasat). On that idea though, it would be questionable if the Romulans would even side with Cardassia to help against the Klingons. Cardassia had nothing to offer the Romulans other then the perverse satisfaction that they'd be helping to hurt the Klingons...

 

[JM1776]

Gamma_Quadrant said: A better question would be "Did the Dominion plan to wipe out the Cardassians (thus fulfilling the promise) after their victory over the Alpha quadrant?"

That's the question I was addressing primarily. The matter of her thought process as she ordered all Cardassians exterminated is more legitimately a matter of interpretation---though I stand by my stated position.

Dukat, ironically enough, was far too trusting. He believed the Dominion would give the Alpha Quadrant to Cardassia.

I disagree with this. I don't believe Dukat was so stupid as to think the Dominion would simply allow him rulership over the Alpha Quadrant as its viceroy.

I think on some level he adjudged Cardassian duplicity and ruthlessness more than a match for that of the Dominion, and joined with the express (if not necessarily conscious) idea of rebelling once the Founders had served their purpose. He figured that the Dominion would restore Cardassian might and together they'd thrash the Federation Alliance. In the wake of their foe's defeat, though, sudden and decisive action would eject the Dominion from the Alpha Quadrant, leaving a restored Cardassia dominant over a prostrate Federation and Klingon Empire. Then they'd deal with the Romulans themselves, eventually, using the Federation's infrastructure to build Cardassia into an Alpha Quadrant superpower able to defeat any conceiveable foe---including the Dominion, eventually.

I don't think this guy's ambition had any limits.

Did he sorely overestimate Cardassia's ability to throw off the Dominion yoke? Indeed. Was it an outgrowth of his overweening arrogance and egotism? Yep.

 

[Timo]

In light of that, it makes all the sense in the world that he'd become obsessed about the Bajoran beliefs regarding the wormhole. Control over that anomaly would be the means (probably the only means) by which Dukat could separate his people's destiny from that of the Dominion. And the religion offered Dukat personal control of the wormhole! It would be easy for him to rechannel his original ambition, even if it meant embracing the despised superstitions of a loathed former victim-enemy.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gamma_Quadrant]

JM1776 said:
That's the question I was addressing primarily. The matter of her thought process as she ordered all Cardassians exterminated is more legitimately a matter of interpretation---though I stand by my stated position.

Ah, well that's what I get when I walk into the middle of debate. It seemed like you were arguing for her reasoning during the last episode of DS9, not the aftermath. Sorry for the confusion.

As for her thought process during the last episode, I'm unsure as to how it can be interpreted any other way then she was retaliating against the Cardassian's rebellion.

JM1776 said:I disagree with this. I don't believe Dukat was so stupid as to think the Dominion would simply allow him rulership over the Alpha Quadrant as its viceroy.

I think on some level he adjudged Cardassian duplicity and ruthlessness more than a match for that of the Dominion, and joined with the express (if not necessarily conscious) idea of rebelling once the Founders had served their purpose. He figured that the Dominion would restore Cardassian might and together they'd thrash the Federation Alliance. In the wake of their foe's defeat, though, sudden and decisive action would eject the Dominion from the Alpha Quadrant, leaving a restored Cardassia dominant over a prostrate Federation and Klingon Empire. Then they'd deal with the Romulans themselves, eventually, using the Federation's infrastructure to build Cardassia into an Alpha Quadrant superpower able to defeat any conceiveable foe---including the Dominion, eventually.

I don't think this guy's ambition had any limits.

Did he sorely overestimate Cardassia's ability to throw off the Dominion yoke? Indeed. Was it an outgrowth of his overweening arrogance and egotism? Yep.

Well, I didn't mean that he blindly felt the Dominion was trust worthy and would hand the Alpha quadrant to them. However, he made a rather bad choice in joining with them. Dukat was egotistical, but he never struck me as stupid. I'm not sure if he planned to annihilate the Dominion after the end of the war (barring any problems with victory). I wouldn't be suprised if he believed something like that, but he seemed rather...subservient to the Dominion. If you watch closely, you'll see Damar(when he was a bad guy) watch in surprise as Dukat backed down when Weyoun would say something. You would think that Dukat would grow to learn he's become a tool.

 

[JM1776]

Gamma_Quadrant said: As for her thought process during the last episode, I'm unsure as to how it can be interpreted any other way then she was retaliating against the Cardassians' rebellion. .

She may well have been, in that instant. But what she'd said previously shaped that response. It's far easier to reply with "kill 'em all, even the hapless innocents" when faced with such a problem, than it is to do so if you haven't already declared and decided that you're going to whack 'em all eventually anyway.

In addition, that moment suddenly represented her only chance to keep the promise she'd already made. "The spheres" were "in commotion, the elements in harmony," at that point.

I have a major problem with this idea that the Cardassians would have been left to rule the Alpha Quadrant in the postwar world.

Well, I didn't mean that he blindly felt the Dominion was trust worthy and would hand the Alpha quadrant to them. However, he made a rather bad choice in joining with them. Dukat was egotistical, but he never struck me as stupid. I'm not sure if he planned to annihilate the Dominion after the end of the war (barring any problems with victory). I wouldn't be suprised if he believed something like that, but he seemed rather...subservient to the Dominion. If you watch closely, you'll see Damar(when he was a bad guy) watch in surprise as Dukat backed down when Weyoun would say something. You would think that Dukat would grow to learn he's become a tool.

Well, Dukat was always a bit of a tool.

I did watch closely---closely enough to see that the idea of Dukat serving the Dominion forevermore was not and never his plan.

I think he knew that to back down from confrontation with Weyoun was necessary at that point in time. Making a show of opposition for the sake of Cardassian pride, followed by sullen, grudging acquiesence, seemed Dukat's and Damar's favored methodology. Too much or too little defiance would have roused the Founder's/Vorta's suspicions.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

JM1776 said:

Dukat, ironically enough, was far too trusting. He believed the Dominion would give the Alpha Quadrant to Cardassia.

I disagree with this. I don't believe Dukat was so stupid as to think the Dominion would simply allow him rulership over the Alpha Quadrant as its viceroy.

I think on some level he adjudged Cardassian duplicity and ruthlessness more than a match for that of the Dominion, and joined with the express (if not necessarily conscious) idea of rebelling once the Founders had served their purpose. He figured that the Dominion would restore Cardassian might and together they'd thrash the Federation Alliance. In the wake of their foe's defeat, though, sudden and decisive action would eject the Dominion from the Alpha Quadrant, leaving a restored Cardassia dominant over a prostrate Federation and Klingon Empire. Then they'd deal with the Romulans themselves, eventually, using the Federation's infrastructure to build Cardassia into an Alpha Quadrant superpower able to defeat any conceiveable foe---including the Dominion, eventually.

I don't think this guy's ambition had any limits.

Did he sorely overestimate Cardassia's ability to throw off the Dominion yoke? Indeed. Was it an outgrowth of his overweening arrogance and egotism? Yep.

I agree. I don't think he thought the Dominion would merely *give* the AQ to Cardassia either. I think he was just arrogant enough to think Cardassia alone could throw off the Dominion once they had subjected the rest of the AQ.

In more than a couple of conversations with Damar, he pretty clearly indicated his eventual intention to betray the Dominion, once they had outlived their usefulness.

Mind-bogglingly arrogant.

But then, this is Dukat we are talking about.

This is what annoys me when people say that the writers ruined Dukat in the last season by turning him into a crazy-man.

The fact is, he was ALWAYS a crazy-man. The unquenchable thirst for power, combined with arrogance and the almost complete lack of conscience made him into a sociopath from day ONE of that show. In fact, from BEFORE day one.

 

[JM1776]

I think the problem most people have, PKTrekGirl, is that he went from a layered and complex adversary---one you could on some level respect---to something of a moustache-twirling villain over the course of the last season-and-three-quarters. While I comprehend that Ziyal represented his lifeline to redemption in the writers' eyes, the decision to kill her merely to facilitate his descent into madness seemed to me unworthy of the storyline that preceded it.

I, too, think they ruined him. Just about any direction other than "Mwa ha ha!" would have been preferable.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

^ But see...that was Dukat's destiny, IMO. He started out in episode 1, season 1 as a sociopath...and went downhill from there (and since it's pretty hard to go 'downhill' from being a sociopathic mass-murderer and war criminal on day one..well...I'm not so sure they had much of a choice in terms of where they could take him that could possibly be worse!) In other words, this wasn't an all-of-a-sudden thing.

So if you didn't like his direction the last season, then I don't understand how you could like his direction at all, throughout the entire show. Because where he ended up was exactly where he was headed all along.

He was always headed downhill. In season seven, he finally got there.

 

[Timo]

Oh, I don't know... He was on the side of the heroes in "The Maquis". He listened to Bajoran advice in "Indiscretion" and "Return to Grace". He even fought alongside Garak in "Way of the Warrior". The writers might have been on their way of writing him into a semi-sympathetic character like Damar, until the opportunity presented itself for doing something completely different...

Not that I'd have particularly disliked the Dukat-as-madman concept. It was IMHO just as interesting as any other new course the writers might have taken, and of course better than dragging the character along unchanged through the seven seasons.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

I watched Return to Grace last night - Dukat was very clear in his desire to return to power. The Dominion gave him that option. Until then, he was content to at least fight, so he could feel like a Cardassian. The idea of being a heroic resistance fighter no doubt appealed to him, as did the irony.

 

[JM1776]

PKTrekGirl said: But see...that was Dukat's destiny, IMO.

This is television writing. No one has a "destiny" that can't be altered a week later during sweeps.

He started out in episode 1, season 1 as a sociopath and went downhill from there (and since it's pretty hard to go 'downhill' from being a sociopathic mass-murderer and war criminal on day one..well...I'm not so sure they had much of a choice in terms of where they could take him that could possibly be worse!)

Are you saying you thought it obvious Dukat was a sociopath within minutes of seeing him on screen, without any of the subsequent developments or revelations? If so ... respectfully, I'm not buyin' what you're sellin', here. Early on, we certainly could have interpreted him as a military commander thrust into an impossible situation as the governor of a recalcitrant planet and intransigent population---doing his best to keep order in a chaotic situation. In addition, his first encounter with Sisko was more typical Cardassian posturing as opposed to sociopathic behavior.

I'm not even sure "sociopath" as we usually employ it applies to early-season Dukat. He certainly had nothing against Cardassian society, after all.

In other words, this wasn't an all-of-a-sudden thing.

Perhaps not (though your retroactive analysis is contigent on certain assumptions with which I don't agree) ... but it was ineptly executed, much to the character's and series' detriment.

So if you didn't like his direction the last season, then I don't understand how you could like his direction at all, throughout the entire show. Because where he ended up was exactly where he was headed all along.

He was always headed downhill. In season seven, he finally got there.

Um ... not really.

He could have found redemption, convincingly, if the writers had put a little work into it. He could have continued his descent towards damnation in genuinely tortured and complex fashion, in either case allowing him to retain the nuances and layers that made him the villain we'd grown to appreciate---which would have been far more appropriate and fulfilling than the direction taken.

Killing off Ziyal was facile. It allowed the writers to send Dukat off the deep end and justified any subsequent action with, "He's gone, Daddy, gone." I expected better. So did many of the fans.

But this idea that his destiny was inevitable? That only works if you accept the white hat/black hat mentality that a series like Deep Space Nine strove against---at least until this grievous error in judgment.

 

[Solariabsg25]

I believe that Dukat honestly believed that after the Dominion had crushed the Federation and Klingons, they would then close the wormhole and wipe out the Dominion. I seem to remember him promising Damar that he could kill Weyoun when the time was right.

I also feel that his comments to Sisko about wanting to wipe out all the Bajorans is true, but was not true at the beginning. He blamed them for his daughters death, and blamed them for the Klingon invasion. I still can't understand objections to his fall, after all, not like we haven't seen things like this in the past, such as Khan after his wife's death on Ceti Alpha V.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

JM1776 said:

PKTrekGirl said: But see...that was Dukat's destiny, IMO.

This is television writing. No one has a "destiny" that can't be altered a week later during sweeps.

He started out in episode 1, season 1 as a sociopath and went downhill from there (and since it's pretty hard to go 'downhill' from being a sociopathic mass-murderer and war criminal on day one..well...I'm not so sure they had much of a choice in terms of where they could take him that could possibly be worse!)

Are you saying you thought it obvious Dukat was a sociopath within minutes of seeing him on screen, without any of the subsequent developments or revelations? If so ... respectfully, I'm not buyin' what you're sellin', here. Early on, we certainly could have interpreted him as a military commander thrust into an impossible situation as the governor of a recalcitrant planet and intransigent population---doing his best to keep order in a chaotic situation. In addition, his first encounter with Sisko was more typical Cardassian posturing as opposed to sociopathic behavior.

I'm not even sure "sociopath" as we usually employ it applies to early-season Dukat. He certainly had nothing against Cardassian society, after all.

In other words, this wasn't an all-of-a-sudden thing.

Perhaps not (though your retroactive analysis is contigent on certain assumptions with which I don't agree) ... but it was ineptly executed, much to the character's and series' detriment.

So if you didn't like his direction the last season, then I don't understand how you could like his direction at all, throughout the entire show. Because where he ended up was exactly where he was headed all along.

He was always headed downhill. In season seven, he finally got there.

Um ... not really.

He could have found redemption, convincingly, if the writers had put a little work into it. He could have continued his descent towards damnation in genuinely tortured and complex fashion, in either case allowing him to retain the nuances and layers that made him the villain we'd grown to appreciate---which would have been far more appropriate and fulfilling than the direction taken.

Killing off Ziyal was facile. It allowed the writers to send Dukat off the deep end and justified any subsequent action with, "He's gone, Daddy, gone." I expected better. So did many of the fans.

But this idea that his destiny was inevitable? That only works if you accept the white hat/black hat mentality that a series like Deep Space Nine strove against---at least until this grievous error in judgment.

Okay, first of all, I am not talking about what we KNOW about Dukat in 1x1. I am talking about what he IS in 1x1.

And what he IS in 1x1 is the man who headed up the occupation of Bajor, who was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Bajorans, the enslavement (including sexual enslavement) of millions more, and who STILL managed to see himself as the benevolent caretaker of Bajor.

Now...if that isn't the definition of insane, I don't know what is.

The fact that we didn't know it yet is irrelevant. Canon backstory is very clear on the fact that that is how he saw himself - long before 1x1. So it follows that in 1x1, that was what he WAS. Regardless of whether it was readily apparent to us 'outsiders looking in' or not.

I don't know what else to say. If you think that Dukat was just your average Joe-deposed-ruler when DS9 started...I don't think I can convince you otherwise.

But from where I sit, he was insane LONG before season 7. IMO, he was insane before season 1 even began.

All the show did was unfold, bit by bit, the already existing truth of just how insane he was...and his further descent into that insanity.

I mean, just because a person hasn't seen a documentary yet about Hitler doesn't mean that Hitler wasn't one wacked out dude. It doesn't take a documentary to MAKE Hitler insane. Hitler was ALREADY insane. The documentary just illustrates what already was.

And yeah...I think the desire to first subjugate, and then commit genocide on the Bajoran people is a pretty clear indication of a sociopath. But I suppose your mileage may vary.

 

[kirk40]

If i were Ducat would i be arrogant enough to assume that i could sign a pact with the Dominion, let them rebuild my empire, and then turn on them once they'd helped me destroy my enemies? Yeah, probably.

Also i think he partly did it just to tick off Sisko.