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If Money is not a driving force for the federation, what would actually work to replace this....

Money is far too useful an invention to ever abolish, it would be like abolishing the wheel. Even in a post-scarcity economy you'd still need money to facilitate certain types of transactions.

What they should have done is simply explain that somehow, magically, humans do no longer see the acquisition of money (and the power that can come with it) as a goal in itself, but only as an instrument to facilitate equitable exchanges. That wouldn't have been any less realistic, but at least it would have been less silly.
Or they use raffle tickets to give out beachfront property, ranches (Kirk owned) and vineyards (Picards).
I would take what Picard said in First Contact with a pinch of salt, he was an upper-middle class Frenchman, he was not exactly living off just Federation Universal Basic Income.
There is enough evidence in the franchise to show some humans are better off than others (compare Picard to Raffi, even TAS had a philanthropic wealthy human, Carter Winston, plus Spock's family owned a lot of desert land). Some humans like Picard are not bothered about acquiring wealth since they already have it (very convenient), others like the humans in DS9 who joined the Orion syndicate and helped break into the Bolian Bank have other reasons.
(Why would one rob a bank, for shits and giggles?)
Once again for the millionth time, all this thread will show is a TV show contradicts itself with its world building cos it is written by infallible human writers.

So let us talk about something simpler...Starfleet's role as a military organisation.
 
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Just a funny thought, if Earth has no money barter system, Eaton college , Harrow, Harvard, MIT and all those elite learning centres might have to close lol
(Or take the best not the richest, regardless of income, since there is no 'income')
 
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So let us talk about something simpler...Starfleet's role as a military organisation.

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Bounty hunters aren't part of the Federation.
I'd suspect that there are a number of bounty hunters working within Federation space for Federation authorities, as there an element of the justice system in various places, bringing criminals in to stand trial for what they've done.

The UFP has its credits, so it does run some sort of monetary economy (it would need to for trading with other species), which will be an element of their society just not the ultimate goal.

With over 150 member worlds in the Federation, there's nothing to say that use of money or the accrual of wealth is a driving force for any of them, believing that it is would be a very human-centric view of the galaxy.
 
Incorrect.
Money was useful during actual scarcity in specific areas which required management of some kind to ration the said resources, but that stopped being the case when we developed technology to mass produce abundance.
The notion of 'trade' and 'transactions' is useless in a technologically advanced society like ours that is already generating abundance... and an obstruction which leads to ridiculous mis-management of Earth's resources, excessive waste, climate change, and millions of deaths that occur every year ( about 9 million die due to hunger every year, even though we produce enough to feed over 10 billion... 1.5 million die due to preventable diseases, and at least 500 000 die annually due to homelessness, despite there being more homes than homeless people).

Money WAS a useful invention, but it outgrew its usefulness along with politicians since the first great depression hit in the 1930-ies.

I don't think money creates mis- management. Money is only a tool, after all. Human nature leads to mismanagement. Money at worst helps us to mismanage more efficiently and on a larger scale :)

Second, I don't believe there will ever be a post-scarcity situation. I don't consider the Trek universe post-scarce, for example. There will always be 'goods' for which there's more demand than supply, even with replication technology. Whether we're talking about latinum, space on a prime location, originals of famous arts works, or the genius of a highly distinguished professional man (whether that is a strategic genius, a Starfleet captain, or a physics professor, or ...)
 
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I believe Federation Credits was only used when dealing with non-Federation members.
While internally, it is never explained as to what form of common currency or medium is used to negotiate for goods / services.
 
Whenever I see this topic I'm reminded of a quote from Daria:
"In sum, my world would be fairer by the simple step or eliminating all money. Politicians could serve the people they represent, instead of the ones pays for their attack ads. CEO's could stop fouling the planet and cheating their workers just to keep their stock prices pumped. And, of course, promising young students such as myself, could actually study, instead of spending their time groveling in scholarship essays."

We can see in Trek this is essentially what has happened. With no need for money, people are healthier, happier and more productive. Just imagine if tomorrow all money was just eliminated, people could do what they had passion for, and job satisfaction would be what everyone strove for, rather than making enough money to pay the mortgage/rent, bills, buy food, etc. The world would be a fairer place and we'd all be the better for it.

But that's just me and my lefty, liberal thoughts :lol:
 
I believe Federation Credits was only used when dealing with non-Federation members.
While internally, it is never explained as to what form of common currency or medium is used to negotiate for goods / services.
I see no problem using Federation Credits for internal Federation business, too. Example: a Federation Union barkeep working on a Federation Space Station sells a tribble to a Starfleet crewman for 10 credits. Starfleet crewmen sit down at a table in a bar on a Federation Space Station; a barkeep takes drink orders and brings the drink order to the table. In both cases, no names, ID cards, or credit cards are asked for or offered. Are the bar's hidden cameras using facial recognition with the bar's computer linked into the Space Station's computer which is in turn are linked into the personnel and credit (bank) account on the visiting Starship to auto-charge the crewmen? Something similar is arranged/negotiated for non-Fed visiting Spaceships like Klingons, for example. Sounds plausible; no money is used, but electronic Federation credits are exchanged for tribbles and drinks.
 
Maybe they all have to do Federal Service like Starship Troopers but instead of military you have to go be a plumber or builder or something for some amount of time.

There may be something to be said for the idea of mandatory public service, but the Starship Troopers model is tyrannical: citizenship and enfranchisement should absolutely not be restricted on the basis of any sort of perceived "merit." They are rights and should be treated as such.

(Paul Verhoeven was right to depicted the supposedly meritocratic democracy of Starship Troopers as being in reality a militaristic, fascistic system in his film adaptation.)

You get basic needs through your house replicator. Thing is people nowadays will go do stuff for free, like volunteering, so I can imagine that sentiment being possible in some post scarcity economy, especially one where all the old ways got nuked in World War 3. You will still have people that try to manipulate the system for their own benefit but in some imaginary world everything mostly goes right.

This sounds about right to me. We know from PIC "Remembrance" that some home replicators have a more extensive library of things they can fabricate than others, but it would seem that a basic replicator can probably produce most of a person's essential physical needs.

Yeah one thing 90s trek never managed to explain completely is who cleans everything. I think they sometimes claimed that the Enterprise is "self-cleaning" or something like that, but how that's supposed to work is never explained.

Well, aboard starships, we know cleaning is at least partially one of the duties of low-ranking officers. But we also know from Short Treks: "Ephraim and Dot" and from DIS that Federation starships have carried sophisticated automated robotics technology since at least the 2250s. So I think it's a combination of human effort and automation. I imagine automation is used more extensively in civilian life for janitorial work than on starships -- gotta give your crew something unpleasant to do to build character and discipline, after all. ;)

Though the question is how much plumbing they really need is questionable, it's possible that their showers/bathtubs just replicate water and "recycle" it back into energy at the end.

Entirely plausible. Though I think something to bear in mind:

And it's possible that...waste...is similarly recycled into replicator energy.

We know from numerous episodes that Federation starships and starbases often maintain hydroponics bays to grow fresh fruit and vegetables. It's entirely plausible that these hydroponics bays may utilize the existing water and waste systems without replicating anything.

Ultimately I suppose it's a question of which system is more energy efficient -- replicating and dematerializing as needed, or recycling water and waste without using the replicator system.

Considering how much the characters always bitch about how replicated food is, somehow, inferior to home made stuff, I find it possible that replicated clothes and objects might be thought of similarly. Meaning things like hand tailored clothes and furniture survive as luxury articles that you can buy and sell for "credits", The bulk of the population just replicates their clothes and other things for very, very cheap/free and non-replicated clothes are all now hand-tailored by people who just have a passion for fashion (like Garak) and trades and craftsmanship probably have made a huge comeback. There likely aren't any chain stores anymore and no things like children in poorer countries being forced to sow jeans in sweatshops.

Sounds about right to me. Although I think the example of Garak is perhaps not illustrative of the Federation as a whole, since the station is Bajoran territory and it's not clear if Bajor has abandoned capitalism yet.

In fact an article like a dress made out of non-replicated material might even be a lot more expensive/luxurious than a hand-tailored dress would be today. There's likely not a lot cotton production going on anymore. Wool only from people who just like to keep sheep as pets. Non-replicated silk and leather might be completely unobtainable if you take Riker's words about not "enslaving" animals for their products anymore as gospel (since you need to kill animals to obtain leather and silk)
So a hand-tailored dress made out of non-replicated cotton is probably something mostly "rich" people can afford in the 24th century or something that's saved for special occasions.
So there would still be luxury, possibly even less obtainable than it is today, but there's no longer any poverty.

Interesting thoughts!

Incorrect.
Money was useful during actual scarcity in specific areas which required management of some kind to ration the said resources, but that stopped being the case when we developed technology to mass produce abundance.
The notion of 'trade' and 'transactions' is useless in a technologically advanced society like ours that is already generating abundance... and an obstruction which leads to ridiculous mis-management of Earth's resources, excessive waste, climate change, and millions of deaths that occur every year ( about 9 million die due to hunger every year, even though we produce enough to feed over 10 billion... 1.5 million die due to preventable diseases, and at least 500 000 die annually due to homelessness, despite there being more homes than homeless people).

Money WAS a useful invention, but it outgrew its usefulness along with politicians since the first great depression hit in the 1930-ies.

Your argument here is based on the assumption that all goods and services are fungible, and that there is never a situation in which different parties need items that they cannot obtain through direct barter. I find these premises suspect.
 
Your argument here is based on the assumption that all goods and services are fungible, and that there is never a situation in which different parties need items that they cannot obtain through direct barter. I find these premises suspect.

Considering the fact we developed thousands of superior synthetic derivatives decades ago which can be produced in sustainable abudnance and used as a replacement for so-called 'scarce' materials, I'd say its more than doable.

Barter and trade are completely useless and outdated notions. They have no place (I repeat, 'no place') in a technologically advanced society like our own which is capable of producing abundance.
The only thing we DO need is intelligent management of Earth's resources... and Capitalism (not to mention a monetary based system) is simply speaking INADEQUATE for the task (considering it caused massive Climate change, rampant consumerism... 'indefinite growth' which cannot possibly be maintained on a finite planet, and results in AT LEAST 11 million human deaths [which are entirely preventable] every single year, despite the fact of Humanity producing more than enough for everyone).
Add to that the fact we enslave, torture, breed and slaughter over 70 billion land animals every year unnecessarily for human consumption (which require enormous amount of resources and land)... and this number grows to BEYOND 1.2 Trillion per year when you factor in the amount of marine animals we needlessly capture and kill [again, for NEEDLESS human consumption and industry]).

Also, A LOT of the goods and services we have today are entirely a product of capitalism which have 0 intrinsic value to society for betterment of quality of life or protection, repair and preservation of the environment/biosphere... aka, we produce a lot of unnecessary stuff which is a waste of resources and only exist to employ people in garbage jobs that no one wants to do or shouldn't exist in the first place (for the sake of 'economic growth' and acquiring useless bits of paper that people require to gain access to the abundance we produce using not even far more efficient methodologies).

Add to that the fact we developed molecular manufacturing technology in 2015 and had AI controlled atomic scale manufacturing since 2018.

The 'market' on the other hand is barely starting to use 3d printers (which are sorely outdated from a technological point of view) and are basically becoming 'cost effective' to use (which doesn't have ANYTHING to do with our capability of producing sustainable abundance for everyone with a minimal [and much lower] footprint on Earth compared to what we are doing now - because we DO have the technology, resources and the know-how... which is really all that matters... money DOES NOT matter).
 
I believe Federation Credits was only used when dealing with non-Federation members.

IIRC, in "The Trouble with Tribbles", Uhura and Chekov buy tribbles (using UFP credits) from Cyrano Jones. All three are Federation members, and Deep Space Station K-7 is Federation territory.

There was also a VOY episode where Janeway relates the tale of how she was buying some kind of artifact from a Vulcan master, who upped the price (again, in credits) upon finding out she was Starfleet.

Just imagine if tomorrow all money was just eliminated

Yeah, there'd be no way to compensate people for working their asses off.
 
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Considering the fact we developed thousands of superior synthetic derivatives decades ago which can be produced in sustainable abudnance and used as a replacement for so-called 'scarce' materials, I'd say its more than doable.

Barter and trade are completely useless and outdated notions. They have no place (I repeat, 'no place') in a technologically advanced society like our own which is capable of producing abundance.
The only thing we DO need is intelligent management of Earth's resources... and Capitalism (not to mention a monetary based system) is simply speaking INADEQUATE for the task (considering it caused massive Climate change, rampant consumerism... 'indefinite growth' which cannot possibly be maintained on a finite planet, and results in AT LEAST 11 million human deaths [which are entirely preventable] every single year, despite the fact of Humanity producing more than enough for everyone).
Add to that the fact we enslave, torture, breed and slaughter over 70 billion land animals every year unnecessarily for human consumption (which require enormous amount of resources and land)... and this number grows to BEYOND 1.2 Trillion per year when you factor in the amount of marine animals we needlessly capture and kill [again, for NEEDLESS human consumption and industry]).

Also, A LOT of the goods and services we have today are entirely a product of capitalism which have 0 intrinsic value to society for betterment of quality of life or protection, repair and preservation of the environment/biosphere... aka, we produce a lot of unnecessary stuff which is a waste of resources and only exist to employ people in garbage jobs that no one wants to do or shouldn't exist in the first place (for the sake of 'economic growth' and acquiring useless bits of paper that people require to gain access to the abundance we produce using not even far more efficient methodologies).

Add to that the fact we developed molecular manufacturing technology in 2015 and had AI controlled atomic scale manufacturing since 2018.

The 'market' on the other hand is barely starting to use 3d printers (which are sorely outdated from a technological point of view) and are basically becoming 'cost effective' to use (which doesn't have ANYTHING to do with our capability of producing sustainable abundance for everyone with a minimal [and much lower] footprint on Earth compared to what we are doing now - because we DO have the technology, resources and the know-how... which is really all that matters... money DOES NOT matter).

I'm a member of the Democratic Socialists of America, so I'm with you on the need to ditch capitalism. But even most radical socialists I know don't espouse the idea that there's no need for trade and that we already have the capacity to artificially fabricate all necessary goods and services. I'd really like to see you cite some sources on that idea.
 
I see no problem using Federation Credits for internal Federation business, too. Example: a Federation Union barkeep working on a Federation Space Station sells a tribble to a Starfleet crewman for 10 credits. Starfleet crewmen sit down at a table in a bar on a Federation Space Station; a barkeep takes drink orders and brings the drink order to the table. In both cases, no names, ID cards, or credit cards are asked for or offered. Are the bar's hidden cameras using facial recognition with the bar's computer linked into the Space Station's computer which is in turn are linked into the personnel and credit (bank) account on the visiting Starship to auto-charge the crewmen? Something similar is arranged/negotiated for non-Fed visiting Spaceships like Klingons, for example. Sounds plausible; no money is used, but electronic Federation credits are exchanged for tribbles and drinks.

That's exactly what Dr. Crusher does in the TNG pilot episode. She buys a piece of fabric and tells the shopkeeper to put it on her account.
 
That's exactly what Dr. Crusher does in the TNG pilot episode. She buys a piece of fabric and tells the shopkeeper to put it on her account.
However between Encounter at Farpoint and First contact mankind decided bettering oneself was better than paying bills
 
At the end of the day, there's evidence in Star Trek for both the existence and non-existence of money, because the canon was made by different people across different eras and contradicts itself.

I find the easiest way to reconcile the contradictory info is to assume that the Federation has such an abundance of wealth that the most important material needs can be provided free of charge -- everyone gets enough food, water, shelter medical care, education, etc., to be happy and healthy. I also assume that if you want more than the equivalent conditions of what we would today call a middle-class life in a developed nation, that that's where a marketplace comes into play, and one can pursue employment in a worker-owned co-operative.
 
At the end of the day, there's evidence in Star Trek for both the existence and non-existence of money, because the canon was made by different people across different eras and contradicts itself.
I'd agree that money does exist, but it's importance isn't all that great given how cheap most resources are.

I find the easiest way to reconcile the contradictory info is to assume that the Federation has such an abundance of wealth that the most important material needs can be provided free of charge -- everyone gets enough food, water, shelter medical care, education, etc., to be happy and healthy. I also assume that if you want more than the equivalent conditions of what we would today call a middle-class life in a developed nation, that that's where a marketplace comes into play, and one can pursue employment in a worker-owned co-operative.
I don't think anything is provided "Free of Charge", but it becomes fairly cheap to earn more than enough "resources" to cover every day life stuff and you can easily save up for your own personal StarShip if you wanted to or work harder to get whatever you needed for a life traveling between the stars if you desired.
 
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