If Money is not a driving force for the federation, what would actually work to replace this....

[Tenacity]

and from DIS that Federation starships have carried sophisticated automated robotics technology since at least the 2250s

Which apparently completely disappeared only 10 years later.

IIRC, in "The Trouble with Tribbles", Uhura and Chekov buy tribbles (using UFP credits) from Cyrano Jones.

And Kirk sells a house right on Earth several years later.

Just imagine if tomorrow all money was just eliminated

Yeah, there'd be no way to compensate people for working their asses off.

Or just for working, so why would they? As opposed to doing something else with their time?

However between Encounter at Farpoint and First contact mankind decided bettering oneself was better than paying bills

More likely some would and others would not, they could seek fulfillment in different ways.

Having all Humans embrace the same mind set would be odd.

 

[fireproof78]

Which apparently completely disappeared only 10 years later.

Starfleet and the Federation have proven highly reactionary to when things go wrong.

 

[XCV330]

Did Tuvix get two paychecks or one? Did he need multiple bank accounts?Could he count himself as two deductions if the UFP had an income tax?

 

[fireproof78]

Did Tuvix get two paychecks or one? Did he need multiple bank accounts?Could he count himself as two deductions if the UFP had an income tax?

His paperwork had been processed under "transporter accident" so until the next form was sent in.

 

[at Quark's]

Did Tuvix get two paychecks or one? Did he need multiple bank accounts?Could he count himself as two deductions if the UFP had an income tax?

In theory he'd be eligible for tax reduction under the Transporter Accidents Tax Exemption Act of 2374, which was still in the early stages of being formulated when Voyager disappeared, the reason for its inception being Thomas Riker playing a few fiscal dick moves on Will Riker (how he managed to do that from Cardassian prison in the first place is still under investigation). Tuvix probably would fall under the 'undue merger of personalities' clause (paragraph 7-2). However, he'd have to file his request from the DQ, there being a 5-year limit for application starting from the end of the fiscal year the accident happened, and the process might be long and difficult in this case as Neelix isn't a registered Federation citizen, so additional testimonies of witnesses are in order to verify that Neelix existed as a (1) sentient entity that had (2) independent means of income, accompanied (3) by statements from both Tuvix, the Commanding Officer of the facility and the person performing the transport that the personality merger wasn't intentional, along with any additional testimonies that might corroborate this. Then of course, proof of termination of foresaid personality merger and reconstitution of the original persons at the indicated date has to be supplied, signed, countersigned, as well, and so on. Of course the tax agency might, and probably will, ask for additional forms and declarations. They might, for example, insist on an independent expert report on the specific circumstances during transport and whether, in his expert opinion, that might actually have lead to the personality merger in question.

That's a lot of paper work for what seems a minor tax deduction (given that Tuvix was around for a few weeks at the most) and since the earliest instance he could possibly have heard about it would have been Message in a Bottle, it's doubtful he would actually finish the process in time.

If you thought 21st century bureaucracy was bad, you haven't seen anything yet.

 

[Silvercrest]

In theory he'd be eligible for tax reduction under the Transporter Accidents Tax Exemption Act of 2374, which was still in the early stages of being formulated when Voyager disappeared, the reason for its inception being Thomas Riker playing a few fiscal dick moves on Will Riker (how he managed to do that from Cardassian prison in the first place is still under investigation).

Oh that's right. Officially there's only ONE duplicate of Riker. Officially.

Tuvix probably would fall under the 'undue merger of personalities' clause (paragraph 7-2). However, he'd have to file his request from the DQ, there being a 5-year limit for application starting from the end of the fiscal year the accident happened, and the process might be long and difficult in this case as Neelix isn't a registered Federation citizen

Wouldn't Tuvix have to file for Federation citizenship first? Until then, I don't think paying taxes should be a concern for him.

Although I'll allow that the 24th-century IRS might be so bureaucratic and far-reaching that they tax anyone.
Now I want to see a Romulan's tax return and learn how devious they really are.
Also a Borg tax return. (Or would that be THE Borg tax return?)

additional testimonies of witnesses are in order to verify that Neelix existed as a (1) sentient entity that had (2) independent means of income

I think that disqualifies him right there. Neelix was a space bum.

 

[at Quark's]

Wouldn't Tuvix have to file for Federation citizenship first? Until then, I don't think paying taxes should be a concern for him.

They'll declare Tuvok to be the direct 'legal heir' of Tuvok, call it 'inheritance tax' and still apply it. They know all the tricks to get your money, I mean, credits.

Although I'll allow that the 24th-century IRS might be so bureaucratic and far-reaching that they tax anyone.

By the 24th century, their motto probably goes something like 'Death is no longer certain. Our taxes are.'.

 

[Sci]

I don't think anything is provided "Free of Charge",

Why not?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Why not?

"Why should it?"

If everybody works & contributes to society, nothing need be free, everything can be earned through hardwork and output.

You must've heard the proverb: "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime".

If everybody is trained, gets to work in some useful field, and contributes, then everybody will have useful output and will have more than enough for all of society if managed correctly.

 

[Sci]

"Why should it?"

You seem to be starting from the a priori assumption that there's something preferable about not providing things for free when you have a state of abundance. Why?

If everybody works & contributes to society, nothing need be free, everything can be earned through hardwork and output.

But what is the purpose of requiring everyone to work if there is a state of abundance? Why should everyone work when only a few need to work to maintain everyone's level of material comfort? Why not set up a system where only a minority of people need to work and only if they wish to?

You must've heard the proverb: "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime".

That proverb only makes sense in the context of an economic system that exists in a state of scarcity.

If everybody is trained, gets to work in some useful field, and contributes, then everybody will have useful output and will have more than enough for all of society if managed correctly.

But what if there's more than enough for all of society with only a minority of people working? Why not just provide things for free? Why not give people the freedom of not working if doing so does not harm society's abundance?

 

[Nyotarules]

Having all Humans embrace the same mind set would be odd.

Which makes Picard's statement odd, something like 'the pursuit of wealth is not the primary goal for most of humanity' would still work in the script.

"Why should it?"

If everybody works & contributes to society, nothing need be free, everything can be earned through hardwork and output.

You must've heard the proverb: "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime".

If everybody is trained, gets to work in some useful field, and contributes, then everybody will have useful output and will have more than enough for all of society if managed correctly.

When resources are abundant having things for free does not prevent people from working hard (whatever that means) if they desire to. The UFP is not based on the ye olde Earth Protestant work ethic.
'Give a being a replicator and said being will not starve or want for clothing, however they will need somewhere to live'

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You seem to be starting from the a priori assumption that there's something preferable about not providing things for free when you have a state of abundance. Why?

You seem to be under the assumption that all that abundance doesn't come from hardwork, setup, resources, time & effort.

Why should anybody work if you're going to have to give it away anyways and get nothing out of it?

If the other folks get to be lazy, why should the people who work so hard to make all this abundance do anything at all?

If they quit doing anything, they can be equally lazy as the majority and nobody will have any abundance.

Why should it be the minority that has to do the work?

Everybody contributes, and we all benefit as a collective, or nobody contributes, and we all get nothing.

Why should the majority get to enjoy life while a minority slaves away at work to give them abundance?

But what is the purpose of requiring everyone to work if there is a state of abundance?

So that we can collectively enjoy a better life style for the whole of society and have extra tucked away in secure areas as insurance incase disaster strikes and we need that extra resources to make up for loss.

You can never predict when a random Borg Cube will come attack, or when Jem Hadar will sneak attack your planet and devastate everything, you'll need "Extra resources" to balance things out incase of heavy loss.

Why should everyone work when only a few need to work to maintain everyone's level of material comfort?

Again, why should the minority sacrifice themselves for the majority when they get to lounge around in comfort and do jack squat while the minority SLAVES away for them?

I'm asking everybody to contribute a standard amount of hours to work, no more than required, no "Over Work" for the sake of it, just a standard amount so everybody can benefit. No OverTime per Federation Law unless Society is at a Life & Death Struggle similar to WW2 crunch time.

Why not set up a system where only a minority of people need to work and only if they wish to?

It's called SLAVERY or Indentured Servitude, either we all collectively contribute, or you who are lazy can starve and suffer with nothing as far as I'm concerned. Contribute to the greater Federation Society, or get by on BARE MINIMUM basics to survive.

And I mean ABSOLUTE BARE MINIMUM. That means we'll count calories you can have for each meal, water down to every milli-liter. Housing that makes typical college dorm room look like luxury suites. Electricity Allowance that counts every watt you use.

That proverb only makes sense in the context of an economic system that exists in a state of scarcity.

Nothing is Unlimited in this Universe, some things just last a REALLY long time like the lifespan of Stars. It's a false belief that everything is abundant, just because technology. Everything has to be setup, tested, distributed, manufactured, etc. Everything comes through some form of hard work from people.

Society progress through the hard work of MANY people, expansion of knowledge, efforts to learn and increase the foundations and limits of our knowledge, teaching of said new knowledge to others so that they themselves can increase their own knowledge base and recontribute to society. All that is hard work and effort.

But what if there's more than enough for all of society with only a minority of people working? Why not just provide things for free? Why not give people the freedom of not working if doing so does not harm society's abundance?

Then society will stagnate & slowly crumble, people will get lazier & lazier. Less intelligent hard working people will be around because they will see all the others lounging around and emulate them. It'll be a downward spiral.

Why should anybody do the dangerous parts of exploring the Universe when somebody else can do it, I can lounge around in my Holodeck and never leave my wonderful playground.

And when the Borg come, they'll assimilate Earth with no credible resistance, and all of society is gone.

Your individuality is meaningless and the Borg will take everything over.

When resources are abundant having things for free does not prevent people from working hard (whatever that means) if they desire to. The UFP is not based on the ye olde Earth Protestant work ethic.
'Give a being a replicator and said being will not starve or want for clothing, however they will need somewhere to live'

I'd rather all of UFP be hard working contributors to society, then we can all benefit from it. I don't want a lazy soul in my UFP.

 

[Sci]

You seem to be under the assumption that all that abundance doesn't come from hardwork, setup, resources, time & effort.

In the world of Star Trek, it does not; technology has enabled a very little bit of labor to produce a very great amount of wealth.

pquote]Why should anybody work if you're going to have to give it away anyways and get nothing out of it?[/quote]

I think there will always be enough people who want to work to maintain the system without the need for the kind of coercion you're advocating for.

If the other folks get to be lazy,

It won't happen for most folks. The overwhelming majority of human beings want to do work that's meaningful and satisfying. And the few who can't often have mental health problems rather than being "lazy."

why should the people who work so hard to make all this abundance do anything at all?

1) They'll want to. 2) What makes you think the labor necessary is "so hard" in an era of such extreme automation?

You can never predict when a random Borg Cube will come attack, or when Jem Hadar will sneak attack your planet and devastate everything, you'll need "Extra resources" to balance things out incase of heavy loss.

Then you can make arrangements for how to organize society when there is a temporary loss of abundance. But that doesn't really mean much for what to do when you have abundance.

It's called SLAVERY or Indentured Servitude,

Education is a right in U.S. society; does that mean teachers are slavers? In many countries, health care is a right; does that mean doctors and nurses are slaves?

Work will happen consensually. The majority of people won't laze about because that's not what human beings are like in general.

either we all collectively contribute, or you who are lazy can starve and suffer with nothing as far as I'm concerned. Contribute to the greater Federation Society, or get by on BARE MINIMUM basics to survive.

And I mean ABSOLUTE BARE MINIMUM. That means we'll count calories you can have for each meal, water down to every milli-liter. Housing that makes typical college dorm room look like luxury suites. Electricity Allowance that counts every watt you use.

Ah, so you want an excuse to abuse people and feel good about it. Gotcha.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

In the world of Star Trek, it does not; technology has enabled a very little bit of labor to produce a very great amount of wealth.

Than that means everybody can be contributing to society, there is no excuse for laziness amongst anybody.

I think there will always be enough people who want to work to maintain the system without the need for the kind of coercion you're advocating for.

I fundamentally disagree, I think there needs to be consequences for "Not Working".

It won't happen for most folks.

I doubt it, but I'd rather have a gurantee.

The overwhelming majority of human beings want to do work that's meaningful and satisfying.

They won't be the problem, they'll be contributing to society meaningfully.

And the few who can't often have mental health problems rather than being "lazy."

How often do we see anybody with "Mental Health" problems in the UFP? Almost none, if ever. Most of those issues have been solved society wide. The incredibly rare handful are probably like the genetically engineered group that Dr. Bashir interacted with. Literally a handful in a society of Billions - Trillions.

1) They'll want to.

Those that want to aren't the problem. They'll be meaningfully contributing to society.

2) What makes you think the labor necessary is "so hard" in an era of such extreme automation?

Depends on your job and what job you choose to take up. What's "Hard" for one person can be "Easy" for another. Everything is relative. But as long as you work hard and make meaningful contributions / results, nobody is going to fault them.

Then you can make arrangements for how to organize society when there is a temporary loss of abundance. But that doesn't really mean much for what to do when you have abundance.

It means even more when you DO HAVE abundance and are not in an emergency state, it's called preperation and readiness for a worst case scenario. It's during the good times that all of society should be like squirrels and storing away our nuts of abundance for the bad times. Trying to do things when the bad times hit is a recipe for disaster. Early preparedness is the key.

Education is a right in U.S. society; does that mean teachers are slavers? In many countries, health care is a right; does that mean doctors and nurses are slaves?

Society pays for that education to be taught through one financial funding system or another. Teachers volunteer to be in that profession and work to educate and get paid to do so. That's "Work" right there.

Doctors & Nurse get paid via the Health Insurance run by the Government/Private entites that collects money through some form or another. Be it taxes or monthly fees.

Work will happen consensually.

Some will, naturally. I'd rather put in real conditions to gurantee it then hope for the best.

The majority of people won't laze about because that's not what human beings are like in general.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. If given the chance to slack off and laze about, a giant chunk of humanity will go down that path.

Ah, so you want an excuse to abuse people and feel good about it. Gotcha.

So you want to strip people of their goods & services with no reimbursement so others can lounge about at no cost to them. Gotcha. Just giving away free stuff to the lazy and indigent, no getting anything back in return from them.

 

[1001001]

Who would have guessed a thread about money in the Federation would lead to this?

 

[fireproof78]

Who would have guessed a thread about money in the Federation would lead to this?

I think the jar broke.

 

[Sci]

Work will happen consensually.

Some will, naturally. I'd rather put in real conditions to gurantee it then hope for the best.

So in one breath you accuse me of supporting slavery, and in the next you say that you want to be able to force people to work without their consent!

You just want an excuse to hurt people and feel morally justified about it. Blocking you now.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So in one breath you accuse me of supporting slavery, and in the next you say that you want to be able to force people to work without their consent!

You just want an excuse to hurt people and feel morally justified about it. Blocking you now.

Nuance, I guess you don't understand it. There's a difference between "Incentive" and "Forcing somebody" to work.

I offer "Incentive" and benefits 'to work', and won't offer you any "Benefits" to 'Not Work'.

You offer "Lots of Benefits" to 'do absolutely nothing' and mooch off society.

You think it's "Hurting People" to not hand them "every single Benefit" for doing absolutely nothing for society.

I think it's "Indefensible" that you give away everything to people who would mooch off of society and return nothing.

Your mind is sick and twisted. Nobody, especially society or governments is obligated to do anything for you.

YOU need to get off YOUR butt and do it yourself. If you want to make a better life for yourself, contribute to society. WORK for it.

The fact that you get so offended that you have to "Block Me" and go hide in your 'Safe Space' away from everybody who disagrees with you shows how open minded you are to real "diverse opinions".

So much for IDIC (Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations). You won't even stick it out and debate with me.

You have a "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude along with a "I don't like what you have to say, I'm going to take my ball and go home" behavior. Or in this case, block anybody who disagrees with your world view. That's some real maturity you're showing the world here; you can't even encounter those who differ from you on basic philosophy and debate it with a civil tongue.

If you can't do the most basic thing and encounter diversity on the internet, how do you plan on doing it when you meet societies and cultures drastically different then your own with different opinions IRL or in Star Trek?

 

[Silvercrest]

Nothing is Unlimited in this Universe, some things just last a REALLY long time like the lifespan of Stars. It's a false belief that everything is abundant, just because technology.

I think the discussion is about the Trek universe, not this one.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I think the discussion is about the Trek universe, not this one.

Same principles apply.