If Jellico had stayed captain

[Mojochi]

A key part of the job of any commander or manager is to foster career and professional development in their team. I'm not sure that Jellico's rigid, uncomprimising micro-managing tyranny would facilitate that.

I'd suggest that it's the situation & crisis that's uncompromising, & Jellico's uncompromising bearing, in this one instance that we see him command, is very likely a reflection of that, & not necessarily of him on the whole. This guy's been captain likely a loooong time. How can we say from one mission, over some days, what his overall style is? This is an odd scenario.

Heck, Picard actually hand selected most of these top folks, as Jellico probably did for his own command on the Cairo. They're putting a square peg in a round hole, & everyone there is mad he's not more round, but he's the top banana. They just gotta get more squared away, especially since there's no time to hold hands. The time factor is part of the uncompromising situation. Were he graced with a leisurely ramp-up with this crew, I have no doubt it wouldn't be going like this. He might even be ok getting rounder, so to speak

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I'd suggest that it's the situation & crisis that's uncompromising, & Jellico's uncompromising bearing, in this one instance that we see him command, is very likely a reflection of that, & not necessarily of him on the whole.

And I disagree, because a captain that was remotely interested in crew moral, feedback or input would make it clear that he is ignoring anything they tell them not because it doesn't have value (which Jellico basically told Riker, Troi and LaForge when they raised legitimate potential issues), but because it is necessary in the moment for the plan to work and "ask" them to trust him (see Past!Picard in All Good Things in a far more extreme "stranger commander" scenario).

 

[JesterFace]

I wonder if Jellico had stayed Captain had he not asked the Cardassians to return Picard.

 

[fireproof78]

I'd suggest that it's the situation & crisis that's uncompromising, & Jellico's uncompromising bearing, in this one instance that we see him command, is very likely a reflection of that, & not necessarily of him on the whole. This guy's been captain likely a loooong time. How can we say from one mission, over some days, what his overall style is? This is an odd scenario.

Completely agree.

Jellico comes in, and the crew knows the basics of the mission, and yet is not willing to attempt to make an effort? Sorry, it's a sore spot to go "Jellico is obviously wrong."

I just don't see that. There are potential problems, but there always will be. Riker just says "there are potential problems" and doesn't offer a solution. That's a problem from a professional stand point.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Jellico comes in, and the crew knows the basics of the mission, and yet is not willing to attempt to make an effort?

The crew never refused to do anything that he asked, they merely dared to suggest that his Imperialness reconsider when they questioned the need or brought up problems.

Which he refused to do, and in fact continued to create more and more problems and then he "saved the day" with the help of the two people who he'd been dumping on the most, who probably would have come up with a similar idea to save the day without any of his "help".

here are potential problems, but there always will be. Riker just says "there are potential problems" and doesn't offer a solution.

Jellico didn't give him a chance. Hell, he didn't even give him a chance to outline the problems so he could double-check his own decision.

That's a problem from a professional stand point.

Yes, but not for the person you seem to think.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, but not for the person you seem to think.

From all involved, as far as I am concerned.

In any case, I do not have concerns with Jellico as a leader and would welcome a show with him as the captain.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

From all involved, as far as I am concerned.

I think the only person who came out of that looking even vaguely good to everyone was Data, so that's fair.

In any case, I do not have concerns with Jellico as a leader and would welcome a show with him as the captain.

There are certainly stories that could be told there, but I stand by my position that he was the wrong person to put in charge of the Enterprise for that mission, and am unconvinced that he'd magically become the right person for the job after the crisis was over (and indeed at least one established Trek author appears to agree with me). At most, he was the right person to assign to lead the mission but even that I have doubts about.

 

[fireproof78]

There are certainly stories that could be told there, but I stand by my position that he was the wrong person to put in charge of the Enterprise for that mission, and am unconvinced that he'd magically become the right person for the job after the crisis was over (and indeed at least one established Trek author appears to agree with me). At most, he was the right person to assign to lead the mission but even that I have doubts about.

I would agree. But that's because I disagree with the basis of the whole mission in the first place. It's an excuse to torture Picard, which, as demonstrated in other episodes, doesn't have to involve him going on a black ops mission, with his Chief Medical Officer. The decision making on this mission is to create drama, not actually present a reasonable (not even realistic. Just reasonable) mission and situation.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Riker would have been gone in short order.
Probably Deanna too, by extension. She wouldn't like Riker being fired.
Everyone else would adopt a more formal tone around the captain. They wouldn't shoot from the hip- they'd behave more like the benzite exchange officer for fear of providing wrong info or a bad idea.
It time, they'd grow into each other. Jellicoe would soften slightly. Trust would grow. Mutual respect would be earned. Inevitably, they would save each others' bacon, have each others' back, and become a different family than the one we got headed up by Picard.
In the end, everything would have been all right.
Jellicoe would have taken a promotion to flag rank where Picard put it off for years. Enterprise would have had a new captain sooner rather than later.

 

[somebuddyX]

If Jellico remains captain do we still get Ronny Cox in "Stargate SG-1" a few years later? I prefer Kinsey over Jellico.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Riker would have been gone in short order.
Probably Deanna too, by extension. She wouldn't like Riker being fired.

Agreed.

Everyone else would adopt a more formal tone around the captain. They wouldn't shoot from the hip- they'd behave more like the benzite exchange officer for fear of providing wrong info or a bad idea.

Yeah, because Jellico would ruin the career of anyone who made the slightest mistake under his command. Which probably included a good chunk of the crew of the Enterprise given how hard he was riding them during his reign.

It time, they'd grow into each other. Jellicoe would soften slightly. Trust would grow. Mutual respect would be earned.

Nope.

Because Jellico wants obedience not respect and doesn't recognise the value of trusting or being trusted.

Inevitably, they would save each others' bacon, have each others' back, and become a different family than the one we got headed up by Picard.

Nope, they would have a "court" with Jellico as their tyrannic overlord.

In the end, everything would have been all right.

Nope, because there are things that Picard did as Captain of the Enterprise that Jellico literally can't do (mainly involving the Borg).

Jellicoe would have taken a promotion to flag rank where Picard put it off for years. Enterprise would have had a new captain sooner rather than later.

If Jellico's failings haven't got them all killed anyway... OTOH there are "plenty more letters in the alphabet".

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

If Jellico remains captain do we still get Ronny Cox in "Stargate SG-1" a few years later? I prefer Kinsey over Jellico.

Probably not.

Which would be a pity, because Kinsey is the kind of brilliantly written character that we are supposed to hate because we understand him.

 

[fireproof78]

I'd take Jellico over Kinsey. Stargate had enough self serving assholes without him.

 

[Mojochi]

(see Past!Picard in All Good Things in a far more extreme "stranger commander" scenario).

Thank you for bringing that up! It's such a good comparison. See, Picard still knew them, even if they didn't know him yet. He still had years of understanding them & how to work with them, how far they could be stressed. They're his crew. He assembled most of them. Even if we discount that time traveler dynamic, & just go back to Farpoint prime itself, while he is a new captain, & the trust might not have had the time to develop yet, there's still respect & even admiration, because a lot of them are the team he chose for himself. Laforge, Riker, maybe even Troi. I suspect even Data & Worf are there by his choice, just like he gave a shot to Ro Laren & Sito Jaxa.

Jellico has NONE of that. He's not an exciting new captain there, on a fancy new ship, with a thrilling new mission out in front of them. He's a replacement captain, an interloper, a usurper, a scab even, with the dirtiest assignment there is, taking a crew of strangers kicking & screaming into a war. No one wanted Picard reassigned, & in the event he must be, they certainly don't think Will should get passed over in his stead, that he's filled exceptionally for years. Jellico walks onto that ship as the man no one wants.

And I disagree, because a captain that was remotely interested in crew moral, feedback or input would make it clear that he is ignoring anything they tell them not because it doesn't have value (which Jellico basically told Riker, Troi and LaForge when they raised legitimate potential issues), but because it is necessary in the moment for the plan to work and "ask" them to trust him.

And maybe, it might not have been as bad as all that, (Which I think you've overstated a bit) if he didn't meet opposition & willful dissent to every single thing he needed, from the minute he got there. The crew bears some blame for how they're being treated by this man, because once he knows they aren't going to be easy to deal with, he goes with option B, wear the role of the guy they don't like, & get the job done in spite of it.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Jellico walks onto that ship as the man no one wants.

And then literally goes out of his way to do the opposite of the things that would actually foster respect or trust at every opportunity.

Unlike Picard in All Good Things, who owned the issue the issue as soon as it came up and used it as a bonding moment.

And maybe, it might not have been as bad as all that, (Which I think you've overstated a bit) if he didn't meet opposition & willful dissent to every single thing he needed, from the minute he got there.

No, he met with what he saw as "opposition and wilful descent" because he approached the situation as if he was an instructor being parachuted into a class of cadets who can't be trusted to know their ship, their crew or their mission as well as the Great and Powerful Wise God Jellico.

The crew bears some blame for how they're being treated by this man, because once he knows they aren't going to be easy to deal with, he goes with option B, wear the role of the guy they don't like, & get the job done in spite of it.

If you treat professionals like they're a bunch of rookie amateurs who aren't even allowed to explain why they think something different from you, then you're going to get resentment. And that's the only negative thing that he got, because at the end of the day, with the possible exception of the shift change (and foisting the change in over less than twelve hours is no better than two) the crew obeyed his orders completely and carried them out to the best of their ability. It's also worth noting that nothing that was accomplished by Jellico (other than perhaps getting Troi back into uniform) was in any way related to or required his being anything more than the mission commander.

 

[Tosk]

Jellico was a taskmaster, no doubt. But his job was to be ready for a devastating battle. It was thanks to his plan and Riker's piloting that they were able to avoid that. If they hadn't pulled it off, you're better off with a ready crew with some hurt feelings than a happy crew that gets blown up. Heck, Jellico even decided to eat his pride and ask Riker to help instead of ordering him. He showed respect to someone he didn't like and who didn't like him. And then Riker rubs it in his face as though he has won something.

 

[somebuddyX]

For the series, I see Will Riker leaving, but they could just bring in Tom Riker. And I could see Data being made first officer, but it would also open the door to bring in another new character to be first officer or to take Data's old job, like how Fredericks came in with Hudson on SeaQuest.

I love the idea of a scene on the bridge where Will Riker says his goodbye and exits out of a turbolift on one side of the bridge and then Tom Riker immediately emerges from the other.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Jellico was a taskmaster, no doubt. But his job was to be ready for a devastating battle.

And a tired, burned out crew with half-done botched changes, some of them forced into roles that they have little or no experience of (which might have been necessary for the decades-old Cairo but are not proven to have any benefit to the newer, more capable Enterprise) aren't going to help with that.

t was thanks to his plan and Riker's piloting that they were able to avoid that. If they hadn't pulled it off, you're better off with a ready crew with some hurt feelings than a happy crew that gets blown up.

Jellico's plan wasn't anything that the senior staff couldn't have come up with by themselves anyway.

Heck, Jellico even decided to eat his pride and ask Riker to help instead of ordering him. He showed respect to someone he didn't like and who didn't like him. And then Riker rubs it in his face as though he has won something

Except that he had to ask Riker because he had relieved Riker of duty so he wasn't under his command any more.

And Riker was enough of a professional to put aside the disrespect and abuse that he'd been given by Jellico (partly because he admitted that he was out of line at the end) and because he knew that the safety of the ship and the mission were more important than being right (which is the opposite of Jellico).

 

[Tosk]

Except that he had to ask Riker because he had relieved Riker of duty so he wasn't under his command any more.

You don't suddenly become a free agent when relieved of duty. Riker is still part of the chain of command. (Hey, good name for an episode or two!)

And Riker was enough of a professional to put aside the disrespect and abuse that he'd been given by Jellico

What disrespect and abuse? I seem to recall Riker exploding at his captain in front of another officer, whereas the only time Jellico spoke poorly of Riker was in a private conversation with another captain.

partly because he admitted that he was out of line at the end

When was that?

 

[USS Firefly]

And a tired, burned out crew with half-done botched changes, some of them forced into roles that they have little or no experience of (which might have been necessary for the decades-old Cairo but are not proven to have any benefit to the newer, more capable Enterprise) aren't going to help with that.

If they are that easily burnout and tired they aren't professionals and the best crew of the fleet