If Jellico had stayed captain

[Oddish]

Exactly.

And, Starfleet officers, supposedly trained professionals, would demonstrate professionalism to take their new CO's orders and follow them. That's their job in the service to the mission.

I think that everyone in the chain of command did just that. Here's a simplified version of what likely happened:

JELLICO to RIKER: Riker, I want to go to a 4-shift rotation.
RIKER to SHIFT LEADERS: The captain wants to go to 4 shifts.
SHIFT LEADERS to RIKER: That would cause serious problems. Do we do it anyway?
RIKER to SHIFT LEADERS: Let me talk to the captain.
RIKER to JELLICO: The shift leaders say it will cause serious problems.
JELLICO to RIKER: Don't care, do it anyway.
RIKER to SHIFT LEADERS: Do it anyway.
SHIFT LEADERS: Aye, sir.

At this point, no one has violated protocol. The captain has exercised his right, the first officer has done what first officers are supposed to do: pointed out a potential mistake, and the shift leaders have made the first officer aware of what's involved.

Since we cannot prove that the serious problems did or did not occur, we cannot debate the wisdom of Jellico's actions, or the competence of the shift leaders. But up until that point, all of the people involved had simply done what was expected of them.

 

[fireproof78]

Other than the unprofessional attitude by Riker I agree.

Riker's resistance to Jellico also causes problems.

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[Oddish]

Other than the unprofessional attitude by Riker I agree.

That happened later, when the two seriously began butting heads.

And no, in general, I'm not a Riker defender. I think he should have been two years into his own command at this point.

 

[fireproof78]

That happened later, when the two seriously began butting heads.

And no, in general, I'm not a Riker defender. I think he should have been two years into his own command at this point.

It shouldn't have happened is my point. Riker's job was to follow through, and ensure the orders could be done, because he knows the crew and what they are capable of, which means if he demonstrates commitment to the idea the department heads will follow his lead. His reticence becomes contagious.

 

[Tosk]

I think that everyone in the chain of command did just that. Here's a simplified version of what likely happened:

JELLICO to RIKER: Riker, I want to go to a 4-shift rotation.
RIKER to SHIFT LEADERS: The captain wants to go to 4 shifts.
SHIFT LEADERS to RIKER: That would cause serious problems. Do we do it anyway?
RIKER to SHIFT LEADERS: Let me talk to the captain.
RIKER to JELLICO: The shift leaders say it will cause serious problems.
JELLICO to RIKER: Don't care, do it anyway.
RIKER to SHIFT LEADERS: Do it anyway.
SHIFT LEADERS: Aye, sir.

At this point, no one has violated protocol. The captain has exercised his right, the first officer has done what first officers are supposed to do: pointed out a potential mistake, and the shift leaders have made the first officer aware of what's involved.

Since we cannot prove that the serious problems did or did not occur, we cannot debate the wisdom of Jellico's actions, or the competence of the shift leaders. But up until that point, all of the people involved had simply done what was expected of them.

You're leaving out a crucial step. After speaking to the department heads when they expressed concern, Riker decided to both:

1. Not carry out the order.
2. Not inform the captain that the order was being ignored. Riker took it upon himself to delay until it was basically too late to implement the order before he even brought it up.

The Dept. heads just expressed their concerns. Riker is the one who completely dropped the ball.

 

[Oddish]

Here's what was said:

RIKER: I was actually going to talk to you about delta shift a little later, sir. Right now, gamma shift will be on duty when we arrive and I will tell Lieutenant McDowell about the probe.
JELLICO: Is there a problem with delta shift, Will?
RIKER: There is no delta shift yet, sir. I have spoken to the department heads about changing from three shifts to four, and they assure me it's going to cause us significant personnel problems.
JELLICO: So you have not changed the watch rotation.
RIKER: I was going to explain this to you after the ceremony, sir.
JELLICO: You will tell the department heads that as of now the Enterprise is on a four shift rotation. I don't want to talk about it. Get it done. Now that means delta shift will be due to come on duty in two hours. I expect you to have it fully manned and ready when it does. Is that clear?

Riker intended to bring the matter to Jellico's attention at a convenient time. I think that's entirely reasonable. I feel that Riker acted in the best interest of the ship. You are free to disagree.

 

[Tosk]

Riker intended to bring the matter to Jellico's attention at a convenient time. I think that's entirely reasonable.

Instead of bringing the information to Jellico, he decided to wait until there was less than two hours until the deadline. He seemingly just assumed that when he told Jellico about the concerns that Jellico would change his mind. He was wrong, and Riker's choice screwed the new shift even harder than they needed to be.

 

[Mojochi]

Apologies. It never saw combat during Jellico's tenure. The situation was resolved principally by (1) Data and Geordi's determination where the Cardassians were, (2) Jellico's plan to preemptively neutralize them, and (3) Riker's piloting skills, assisted by Geordi. Ergo, from the actions of four people. There's no way to determine if Jellico's changes (most notably his four-shift rotation) made the Enterprise more battle-ready or more vulnerable.

Oh. I see what you meant now. I'm not really sure why that matters though, as it relates to his right to order such things. Mostly, my position is that the ship was not outfitted for a long-term wartime bearing. So, some kinds of changes were likely inevitable anyhow, even were it to be Picard in command (much like we see him in Yesterday's Enterprise) So, it's not at all unreasonable that Jellico would do so.

 

[Mojochi]

Riker intended to bring the matter to Jellico's attention at a convenient time. I think that's entirely reasonable. I feel that Riker acted in the best interest of the ship. You are free to disagree.

No matter how reasonable any of us might consider such a decision on his part, (most of us who don't work in as militaristic a command structure) it's not really his place to make that call. That's a grace, one maybe he enjoyed with Picard, but not a given. The carrying out of the orders when it's deemed by him to be more convenient is not a legitimate justification. The order was "changed as soon as possible", not as soon as it's convenient to readdress, with further clarification

I also think it was Riker's intention to further negotiate the issue such that it be reconsidered by Jellico. That's also a leap to expect. His orders need not be justified, nor validated by committee

 

[Oddish]

Riker was a competent first officer, and he assumed both that his department heads were truthful, and that Jellico was a prudent captain who would want to be advised of potential problems. Unfortunately, the latter was not true. Jellico plunged ahead, without regard for the possibility that his department heads knew what they were talking about. Even if your assertion is right, and they were stupid or inept or untruthful... could Jellico have known that beforehand?

 

[Mojochi]

Riker was a competent first officer, and he assumed both that his department heads were truthful, and that Jellico was a prudent captain who would want to be advised of potential problems. Unfortunately, the latter was not true. Jellico plunged ahead, without regard for the possibility that his department heads knew what they were talking about. Even if your assertion is right, and they were stupid or inept or untruthful... could Jellico have known that beforehand?

The thing is, even if we assume all of what you say here is true, (The latter half of which I don't) it still wouldn't justify a refusal or delay in carrying out a superior's order. In truth, all that would is an overt act that willfully or through gross malfeasance puts the ship & crew in imminent threat of danger/destruction. You'd need an awful lot of evidentiary support to make the claim that altering a crew's watch rotation, before it was even in battle conditions, constitutes that degree of neglect or malfeasance. It's just moving some crew around the clock a few hours.

Ultimately, this breakdown of the command structure (& pretty much all their ensuing ones) falls on Riker assuming he had the latitude to infringe on some of the top tier of command, as if his position grants him the power to filter the orders through his own judgement first, at least temporarily, before they are implemented. This may well have been a grace he'd become accustomed to with Picard, & it may be a kind of thing that officers, who work closely & ongoingly together, develop over time as their personal practice, but it's not a given, least of all on the 1st day, of what's to be a pretty unwelcome set of events altogether.

I feel as though, when Riker slipped up by assuming it, he made a bad 1st impression, & kept compounding it with his own attitudes about that, which shaped their dynamic, that & perhaps his aforementioned belief that HE should've been the one to have been given command, or that his way of doing it would be superior, were he to have been. All of this is bad form in a subordinate. Quite a lot of the poorest breakdowns of that ship's command structure, over the entire show, happen in this episode, & Riker's tack is the main cause. Ordinarily, I'd say he's a darn good 1st officer, but he's not practicing any of those qualities here.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The thing is, even if we assume all of what you say here is true, (The latter half of which I don't) it still wouldn't justify a refusal or delay in carrying out a superior's order.

a) Jellico didn't initially phrase it as an order, but a question (He said he'd like to "look into changing the watch rotation")
b) When he first raised the question, he wasn't yet in command and therefore technically had non authority to order the change at that time in any case.
c) Therefore once Riker was told that making the change at such short notice would be disruptive (which it would be because logically doing it that quickly wouldn't give time for extra personnel to be drawn in, so at least in the first day parts of the existing Alpha and Beta Shifts are probably going to have to do as much as twenty hours in the next thirty six), he opted to pause implimenting the suggestion until he had had a chance to raise the issue with Jellico after the change of command.
d) Jellico took umbrage at Riker not following the order that he didn't phrase as an order and didn't have the authority to give at the time anyway, refused to listen to any objections or feedback (a consistent pattern for him through the episodes) and then ensured that at least some of problems would have by ordering it implemented immediately and then doubled down on that by massively disrupting the existing department assignments.
e) Despite this, as far as we know, Riker did follow the order once it was legally and clearly given, thus fulfilling his responsibilities to his new captain, though arguably not to his crew.

Now, Riker does engage in at least unprofessional and arguable insubordinate behaviour later (For instance, his "there is no joy" rant wasn't inappropriate in content, but his tone absolutely was).

 

[TMP-Was-The-Best]

If Jello-Co was still on the Enterprise.... it would be called Star Trekiscovery. Grumpy, unprofessional people everywhere!

 

[Tosk]

a) Jellico didn't initially phrase it as an order, but a question

It was not phrased as a question. Jellico said, "I'd like to change that to four [shifts] starting tonight."

As for being allowed to ignore anything that happens before Jellico is officially in command, c'mon now.
Even if the ceremony wasn't performed yet*, Jellico still outranks Riker and is the incoming commanding officer.
Riker was already told by Nechayev that Picard had been reassigned. If Riker didn't think that Jellico was in command and that he needed to follow his orders, why did he go to the department heads at all?

Jellico "I'd also like to examine the duty roster and the crew evaluations as soon as possible. I want readiness reports from each department head by fourteen hundred hours, and a meeting of the senior staff at fifteen hundred."

Riker "We haven't had the ceremony yet, so I'm not doing any of that."

*Which even Riker says isn't really needed for the change in command.
"They don't usually go through the ceremony if it's just a temporary assignment."

 

[Mojochi]

a) Jellico didn't initially phrase it as an order, but a question (He said he'd like to "look into changing the watch rotation")
b) When he first raised the question, he wasn't yet in command and therefore technically had non authority to order the change at that time in any case.

That's the hill you want to die on? The command code ceremony hadn't happened yet & he didn't phrase it as an "official" sounding enough order?

Everyone was told this was the new captain coming aboard, & that there would be an expedited switch over, due to the urgency of the pending crisis. No time to waste. He gave him a directive (Not a question) on ship function, to be implemented for that night, when he would be in command, in every sense, & just how badly would he come off if he'd stepped off the pad, & immediately said to the XO "I understand you run a 3 shift rotation. I order you to change that to 4, immediately"?

Now, that would be pretty confrontational, imho, to get straight on him with the pulling rank stuff, right out of the gate, in a situation where everybody involved would certainly know this is an unwelcome change of command. So... he put it to him more casually, or conversationally, as a courtesy, but it's still a command, from a superior officer, who is taking command. Plus, like I wrote earlier, I suspect he said it exactly when & how he said it, deliberately to gauge Riker's response. Toss out a small directive up front, & see how it's received, so I know whether I have a cooperative ally in the command structure, or a problematic adversary, both situations being possible, given that no one expects that these people actually want him there.

Clearly, everyone would know they don't want Picard reassigned, or Riker passed over. He's trying to feel Riker out IMHO, & Riker blew it. His response was to just put it off, until we all get our say in the matter. From that point on, we'll have no more casual directives for Mr. Riker. It's all "Get it done" moving forward, & leaning into the role of boss man nobody likes, that has already been laid out for him by the crew.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

That's the hill you want to die on? The command code ceremony hadn't happened yet & he didn't phrase it as an "official" sounding enough order?

Yes.

Because the way he phrased it, as far as Riker knows (because he's never met Jellico and AFAIK he wasn't given the oppurtunity to read Jellico's personnel file), as long as does the set-up (which we don't know that he didn't) and gathers information, that Jellico could decide not to immediately that particular change (a relatively minor one, particularly if it only affected the bridge crew) in order to focus on other areas if Riker is given the opportunity to plead his case. Or as Data puts it later:

WORF: With all due respect, sir, I have always felt free to voice my opinions even when they differ from those of Captain Picard or Commander Riker.
DATA: That is true. But in those situations, you were acting as Head of Security, not as First Officer. The primary role of the second in command is to carry out the decisions of the Captain in this case, me.
WORF: But is it not my duty to offer you alternatives?
DATA: Yes. But once I have made a decision, it is your job to carry it out regardless of how you may personally feel. Any further objections should be given to me in private, not in front of the crew. I do not recall Commander Riker ever publicly showing irritation with his Captain as you did a moment ago.

 

[OtherGene]

If Jellico had stayed Captain then the Enterprise would've been a much stricter, better organised ship. Less pissing about on the holodeck wearing fancy dress (grow up, you're supposed to be elite officers!), less hanging around Ten Forward and Riker would've had to keep it in his pants more and start acting like a responsible senior officer and not some trombone blowing fornicating dog on heat.

Not much of TV show, though.

 

[fireproof78]

If Jellico had stayed Captain then the Enterprise would've been a much stricter, better organised ship. Less pissing about on the holodeck wearing fancy dress (grow up, you're supposed to be elite officers!), less hanging around Ten Forward and Riker would've had to keep it in his pants more and start acting like a responsible senior officer and not some trombone blowing fornicating dog on heat.

Not much of TV show, though.

Don't know unless you try.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

If Jellico had stayed Captain then the Enterprise would've been a much stricter, better organised ship.

A key part of the job of any commander or manager is to foster career and professional development in their team. I'm not sure that Jellico's rigid, uncomprimising micro-managing tyranny would facilitate that.

Less pissing about on the holodeck wearing fancy dress (grow up, you're supposed to be elite officers!), less hanging around Ten Forward

Exactly what business it of the CO what the crew do in their off-hours as long as it's legal and sanctioned by their organisation?

and Riker would've had to keep it in his pants more and start acting like a responsible senior officer and not some trombone blowing fornicating dog on heat.

See above, but also as long as all parties freely consent, what's the problem?

Also, Jellico is the father of at least one child, not a monk. He's not a chaste celibate either.

 

[Mojochi]

Because the way he phrased it, as far as Riker knows (because he's never met Jellico and AFAIK he wasn't given the oppurtunity to read Jellico's personnel file), as long as does the set-up (which we don't know that he didn't) and gathers information, that Jellico could decide not to immediately that particular change (a relatively minor one, particularly if it only affected the bridge crew) in order to focus on other areas if Riker is given the opportunity to plead his case.

This still assumes he has a share in top tier command decisions. The command wasn't "Look into going to a 4 shift rotation, & begin preparations for it". It was "I'd like it this way, tonight". Fullstop. Not having ever known the guy, you take that at face value, & just do that thing, unless it's a wildly dangerous command that merits his on-the-spot refusal. (It isn't)

You sort the problems after it's gone live, or you can (maybe) voice your concerns or alternatives at the moment it's issued, but he didn't do that. He postponed, on his own authority, until he/his people could have their say about it, which Jellico's directives are not subject to.

WORF: But is it not my duty to offer you alternatives?
DATA: Yes. But once I have made a decision, it is your job to carry it out regardless of how you may personally feel. Any further objections should be given to me in private, not in front of the crew.

Not quite the same scenario. When the command is given, Riker offers no alternatives. Nor does he contact Jellico once he's aware of the difficulties that might require him to propose some. He just accepts the command, & the next we hear of it, everyone's chilling in 10-F, & he's called out on it being neglected, & won't go into effect as directed. If he had time to speak with the dept heads & hear their warnings, he had time to contact Jellico about them, & at least arrange for further interaction over it.

Is this worthy of a reprimand that it wasn't done? Not at all. Nor does Jellico do that. He just issues it again in more formal terms as it clearly hadn't been carried out properly the 1st time.

I'm reminded of another minor command breakdown that's on Riker. "I wasn't aware that you wanted to be informed" (about the probe launch to gather intel for Picard) That one seems innocuous, but wasn't he? There was a definitive reason for its launch. It's potentially mission critical. Doesn't that merit addressing it, once it's carried out? Don't you want your superiors fully informed of its status? Picard's ass might depend on it, & he specifically asked for it with deliberate intent.

It's not much different than when they call out Ensign Mendon in A Matter of Honor... & they really have a go at that dude, for failure to report... rightfully so. Jellico doesn't do that to Riker over the probe. He lets it slide, because it's not as much a threat as Mendon's slipup, but he's clearly disappointed in Riker there too, & I'd be also. Pass the baton schmuck, & quit giving out huffs & side-eye cuz you got passed over. There's shit to get done. lol