If Jellico had stayed captain

[Shamrock Holmes]

The exact details would be different, but the end result would probably fairly similar to:

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Engines_of_Destiny

Particularly if -- as seems likely -- that Jellico remained in command because Picard was either never rescued or died in custody (a fairly plausible outcome).

 

[Oddish]

Or if the oncoming war was not averted. Imagine if Delta shift, newly formed and unaccustomed to working together, had been on duty when the shooting started... Enterprise is shot halfway to oblivion before she can do much damage, and Jellico has no choice but to order a retreat (and cannot demand Picard's return). Picard says there are five lights, and is either subsequently killed or given the easier imprisonment promised. Jellico takes some heat for his mistake, but has enough clout with Starfleet to gain a second chance. But he's got a heavily damaged ship, and a crew that has little confidence in him...

EDIT: You know, if TNG's 7th season had gone in that direction, it might well have been better than what we got!

 

[Takeru]

Or if the oncoming war was not averted. Imagine if Delta shift, newly formed and unaccustomed to working together, had been on duty when the shooting started…

If Riker was competent he would have changed the shifts constantly anyway to ensure everyone on the ship has worked with everyone because all it takes is a space flu or tech particles putting a quarter of the crew out of commission for a few days to jumble up the duty schedule for everyone creating a "delta shift" situation around the clock.

And of course the Enterprise crew should be professional enough to effectivly work with each other even if they don't have a lot of personal history. We are told they are the best of the best, that not everybody makes it to a ship like the Enterprise and suddenly they are babies who cannot handle a stock "hostile ships attacking" scenario for the few minutes it takes for the captain to get to the bridge?

 

[Oddish]

Even professionals need some shakedown time for a change like that. Especially when they weren't properly prepared: the department heads said that creating a fourth shift would cause major personnel problems. Accuse "the best and the brightest" of being compulsive liars if you want, but I see no reason to agree. They're not whiners, but they're used to having their expertise trusted. Jellico didn't, so their fourth shift would almost certainly have been hopelessly inadequate compared to the previous three shifts. And indeed, with personnel taken from them unexpectedly, the other three shifts might have had precipitous drops in efficiency as well.

 

[Tosk]

And yet delta shift seemingly did their jobs just fine. And with only two hours notice, thanks to Riker's lollygagging.

 

[fireproof78]

If the department heads know their staff the transition would be manageable.

 

[Takeru]

Even professionals need some shakedown time for a change like that.

I disagree, it's not a big deal. I actually work shifts, not in a military setting but in a hospital but we do have three shifts and should we switch to four it would be a pretty easy transition Right now the first two shifts have 5 nurses each while the nightshift has 4. Should we switch to four shifts we'd probably work 4-3-4-3, there'd be complaining that there now fewer people per shift like there was on the Enterprise but it's not like people would suddenly no longer know what to do and the fact that each nurse now has to do a bit more work would be offset by the fact that the shifts are significantly shorter.

Especially when they weren't properly prepared: the department heads said that creating a fourth shift would cause major personnel problems.

Yet at no point did we see any major or even minor personnel problems, the ship ran as smoothly as ever.

Accuse "the best and the brightest" of being compulsive liars if you want, but I see no reason to agree. They're not whiners, but they're used to having their expertise trusted.

Geordie literally whined to Riker that some of his staff had been assigned to security and all of them should be used to follow the captain's orders. They can voice their concerns but after the captain decided it's time to shut up and just do it which interestingly was exactly was Data told Worf when he dressed him down in Gambit when they were acting captain and first officer.

Jellico didn't,

Because he had his own expertise from being a CO for years at this point and he disagreed with them and apparently he was right.

so their fourth shift would almost certainly have been hopelessly inadequate compared to the previous three shifts. And indeed, with personnel taken from them unexpectedly, the other three shifts might have had precipitous drops in efficiency as well.

What is the basis for this statement? We never see a single problem or even hear of one after the change has been implemented, we only hear them complaining before the change. Based on what we see in the episode Jellico was right, there were no problems and the mission was a complete success. The characters tell us Jellico can't do this, it won't work but the episode shows us he could and it did.

 

[Oddish]

What is the basis for this statement? We never see a single problem or even hear of one after the change has been implemented, we only hear them complaining before the change.

Doesn't matter, I guess. You'd just accuse them of being whiners, like you did Geordi.

Based on what we see in the episode Jellico was right, there were no problems and the mission was a complete success.

The mission proved successful once Jellico did what he should have been doing all along: trusted in the expertise of his people.

Furthermore, we never saw Delta Shift, or any other, actually fight. We saw the conflict settled by the actions of Data, Geordi, and Riker, carrying out an admittedly brilliant plan crafted by Jellico himself. I never said the man was evil or incompetent, just that he got some things right (including the decision not to tell the Cardies about Picard; it wasn't his call or Riker's) and others wrong.

I'm really happy that you work with such a flexible group of people. It's great, really. But not every organization can adapt on the fly as efficiently.

 

[fireproof78]

Starfleet should.

 

[XCV330]

Starfleet should.

yeah, and organization that by the TNG era had been around a few centuries in some form or another but was incapable of instituting lessons learned when it came to their core institutions. We got a lot of statements about how the UFP had many many improvements in terms of societal change, but all we generally got to see of that was Starfleet in practice, and these folks couldn't run a summer camp without massive personnel losses.

 

[Takeru]

Doesn't matter, I guess. You'd just accuse them of being whiners, like you did Geordi.

I accuse them (mostly Geordi and Riker) of being whiners because at no point do we ever see a single problem arise from the changes Jellico made. If the writers wanted to show that Jellico was wrong then maybe they should have shown that his orders led to problems in some way even if it was just a report being late but we got nothing. Everything worked.

The mission proved successful once Jellico did what he should have been doing all along: trusted in the expertise of his people.

But in my opinion that's just another point in Jellico's favor, he knew when to put his own ego aside for the good of the mission, Riker did not, Riker made Jellico say please when I would have expected him to act professional and just say yes to the mission supposed to save everyone's ass.

Furthermore, we never saw Delta Shift, or any other, actually fight.

Why you have so little faith in this new delta shift as if they were a bunch of noobs Jellico brought straight of of the academy and not experienced officers that have worked on the ship just as long as their fellow officers?
And of course during a red alert every department should be fully staffed, isn't that the point of a red alert? To get the people off duty to work anyway because it's an emergency? So the shifts shouldn't even matter during a crisis.

We saw the conflict settled by the actions of Data, Geordi, and Riker, carrying out an admittedly brilliant plan crafted by Jellico himself. I never said the man was evil or incompetent, just that he got some things right (including the decision not to tell the Cardies about Picard; it wasn't his call or Riker's) and others wrong.

But I don't see what he got wrong, I really don't. He wasn't particularly friendly and accommodating and the crew might not have liked what he did but that's not the same as getting things wrong.
And the rest of the crew isn't even who I really have a problem with, they all seemed to get things done after a bit of grumbling at the start. It was only Riker who acted like a complete asshole pretty much the entire time and if I was Picard I would have tossed him off the ship as soon as I returned. Riker acted completely unprofessional and embarrassed not only himself but also Picard who had described him as one of the finest officers he ever worked with.

I'm really happy that you work with such a flexible group of people. It's great, really. But not every organization can adapt on the fly as efficiently.

At the point Jellico set foot on the ship we had seen the crew adapt to all kinds of circumstances for years, they came up with solutions to the weirdest problems, got out of situations that killed other crews, they are at several points described as an exemplary crew, they single handedly prevented invasions by the conspiracy bugs and the borg etc. but changing from a three shift to a four shift rotation somehow breaks them and makes the crew inefficient? I just don't see it.

 

[USS Firefly]

I accuse them (mostly Geordi and Riker) of being whiners because at no point do we ever see a single problem arise from the changes Jellico made. If the writers wanted to show that Jellico was wrong then maybe they should have shown that his orders led to problems in some way even if it was just a report being late but we got nothing. Everything worked.


But in my opinion that's just another point in Jellico's favor, he knew when to put his own ego aside for the good of the mission, Riker did not, Riker made Jellico say please when I would have expected him to act professional and just say yes to the mission supposed to save everyone's ass.


Why you have so little faith in this new delta shift as if they were a bunch of noobs Jellico brought straight of of the academy and not experienced officers that have worked on the ship just as long as their fellow officers?
And of course during a red alert every department should be fully staffed, isn't that the point of a red alert? To get the people off duty to work anyway because it's an emergency? So the shifts shouldn't even matter during a crisis.


But I don't see what he got wrong, I really don't. He wasn't particularly friendly and accommodating and the crew might not have liked what he did but that's not the same as getting things wrong.
And the rest of the crew isn't even who I really have a problem with, they all seemed to get things done after a bit of grumbling at the start. It was only Riker who acted like a complete asshole pretty much the entire time and if I was Picard I would have tossed him off the ship as soon as I returned. Riker acted completely unprofessional and embarrassed not only himself but also Picard who had described him as one of the finest officers he ever worked with.


At the point Jellico set foot on the ship we had seen the crew adapt to all kinds of circumstances for years, they came up with solutions to the weirdest problems, got out of situations that killed other crews, they are at several points described as an exemplary crew, they single handedly prevented invasions by the conspiracy bugs and the borg etc. but changing from a three shift to a four shift rotation somehow breaks them and makes the crew inefficient? I just don't see it.

I agree, I was so disappointed in Riker and Laforge, and Troi. They were preparing for war and didn't have much time.

 

[Tosk]

But not every organization can adapt on the fly as efficiently.

Not even the "best and brightest"?

 

[Vger23]

Jellico was aboard for one single reason: to ready and deploy the Enterprise into an extremely tense and critical situation. His behavior reflected that. I doubt his command style aboard the Cairo was like that during normal missions. He was given a specific task by command: get the Enterprise ready for the unthinkable as efficiently as possible.

He did his job and he did it well.

 

[Oddish]

Not even the "best and brightest"?

Even the best and brightest can be overwhelmed. To put it another way, if a sprinter has to run a 100-meter dash, and you force them to run the race wearing a 50-pound backpack... don't be surprised if they lose.

As for "everything running smoothly", the lights stayed on and the ship didn't crash into anything. But that doesn't mean they were anywhere near the efficiency they would have had if they had the shifts they were used to. The "best and the brightest" can survive a bad situation... but survival is not peak performance.

 

[Mojochi]

Ahhh the shifts debate I love this one. Ultimately, Riker lodges his & the other dept heads' vague warning about "personnel problems" without having the full scope of understanding of the entirety of what the Captain's goal/plan/mission was (which he is under no obligation to provide)

Therefore, their assessment of what constitutes a significant personnel problem is contingent on a bigger picture Riker is not privy to, given that he is not the man with the entire mission layout.

Given how well informed the captain demonstrates himself to be about everything, right down to where his quarters are & Geordi's engine specs, it's fair to consider that he already knew exactly what problems Riker was referring to, and had already factored them, especially since he's planning to reassign a whole bunch of other folks anyhow. Riker could be telling him yesterday's news & never even know it.

It's even entirely possible that Jellico only asked Riker what shift rotation they currently had out of politeness, having already known the answer, & already knowing it would need changing, but was trying to at least be diplomatic & conversational about it, as he'd maybe know it potentially represents something objectionable. (He understands no one should be pleased about this change of command)

This is literally his 1st order as captain, & it is not followed though on, because Riker believes himself to have the latitude to delay or postpone or renegotiate it later. He was wrong... & it's not a good 1st impression, & it might have even been a sampler from Jellico, just to test those waters. Fail... which is why despite his look toward him, Picard has nothing to say about it. It's a fail, by any metric.

Edit: the correct procedure would've been to carry out the order. Note the objections, log the concerns, & initiate the directive, problems & all. Then later, if/when those problems arise, bring that to the captain, or earlier if you expect them... but no one's lives were in imminent danger by changing their watch shift, at that time, such that the captain's order should've been ignored, like he was derelict in his duties for ordering it. His call stands.

 

[Oddish]

The problem is, we're all reduced to speculation. Those who proclaim Jellico as infallible can simple declare the crew to be whiners. Those who revile him can probably come up with their own reasons ("wearing a uniform makes Troi more intimidating to her patients" as a potential example for the innovation we all approve of). And those like me, who take a balanced approach, can obviously go either way. Problem is, the Enterprise never saw combat, and no increase or decrease in shipwide efficiency has been recorded anywhere in canon, plus there's no record that I'm aware of that the ship reverted to three shifts or stayed at four. I've stated my opinion clearly, you as well, and both are plausible.

Obviously, Jellico's style of command worked well for him and for Starfleet, since we saw him as a four-pip admiral in "Prodigy".

 

[Mojochi]

Problem is, the Enterprise never saw combat

Well, even that is debatable. It certainly saw battles, and I'm willing to concede it does have a certain amount of battle readiness under normal circumstances.

However, in its 6 years of service, it never served during active wartime, nor do I feel that was ever its intended design or purpose, unless you include Yesterday's Enterprise.

I actually do consider YE a really good metic for defining how the D would be outfitted during early 24th century wartime. The altered timeline is really only a couple decades earlier. Much of Starfleet history is intact, but for that Narendra III event.

What we see of Picard's Klingon wartime D is quite likely a good measure of what he might have to have it be for a Cardassian war of that period. This is why I give some consideracy to Jellico's alterations. He might be needing to outfit the ship like it is in YE, & no one else aboard has that understanding, having maybe never served under those conditions, or at least there, & the YE 1701-D looks drastically different.

 

[Oddish]

Well, even that is debatable. It certainly saw battles, and I'm willing to concede it does have a certain amount of battle readiness under normal circumstances.

Apologies. It never saw combat during Jellico's tenure. The situation was resolved principally by (1) Data and Geordi's determination where the Cardassians were, (2) Jellico's plan to preemptively neutralize them, and (3) Riker's piloting skills, assisted by Geordi. Ergo, from the actions of four people. There's no way to determine if Jellico's changes (most notably his four-shift rotation) made the Enterprise more battle-ready or more vulnerable.

 

[fireproof78]

Edit: the correct procedure would've been to carry out the order. Note the objections, log the concerns, & initiate the directive, problems & all. Then later, if/when those problems arise, bring that to the captain, or earlier if you expect them... but no one's lives were in imminent danger by changing their watch shift, at that time, such that the captain's order should've been ignored, like he was derelict in his duties for ordering it. His call stands.

Exactly.

And, Starfleet officers, supposedly trained professionals, would demonstrate professionalism to take their new CO's orders and follow them. That's their job in the service to the mission.