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If Cancer Were Cured...would it be bad?

It's like stopping war, or poverty or whatever other plague one cares to mention. They're all what's called "wicked problems", with too many geopoliticosocioeconomic variables to accurately predict the outcome; no way of fully modelling it in advance and testing theories.

When faced with a wicked problem, it's much better to short-circuit the process. Just do what your gut tells you is right and focus on the short or medium term and let the long term take care of yourself. In this case, the "gut" reaction is to cure and figure out the rest of the problems that this decision generates afterward.

Wicked problems. Interesting way of phrasing that. Are you sure you're not from Boston? ;)

As for cancer: Whoever suggests that cancer isn't bad, or that a cure would be, clearly hasn't had to deal with it. My dad had prostate cancer; fortunately, they got it all, and he's healthy now. But for awhile I was afraid I'd lose him. Anyone who thinks cancer shouldn't be cured, had better hope they don't have to go through anything like that. To think that there's anyone who would question the absolute good of a cancer cure is making me so fucking mad I'm afraid I might say something that will get me warned, so I am going to stop here.

I leave with a final thought: Cure cancer. Get rid of it. Eradicate it completely. Whatever might follow from that, can't be worse than cancer. More people living? I'd call that a good result.

I know how you feel. I dropped an F bomb in all italics in my first reply.
 
Cancer is cured.
People spend less money on medical bills.
People use the money they've saved to go out to dinner and buy new HDTVs.
The economy is saved!

Maybe?
 
T'Baio, did you pose your question to get a rise out of folks? Well, rather than take the bait, I'll offer some other views.

First, as a human being, fewer people and their families suffering from cancer would be a good thing for society.

Second, if all the people suffering from cancer suddenly weren't, esp. those of employment age, they could become more productive members of society. This would eventually have the effect of improving the economy, as some of these people would start businesses, go back to work, pay taxes, and be able to support their families, relieving some pressure on the health care system.

Also, while some places that are cancer experts, like Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, would be out of a job, there are plenty of other diseases those doctors could treat, AIDS being just one of them.

In the U.S., we have new cases of, to name just two illnesses, diabetes and end stage renal disease that resources formerly devoted to cancer could then be shifted to treat these illnesses that affect the health and quality of life of millions.

As the Rolling Stones, sang, "You're so cold, you must've born in an arctic zone!"

Red Ranger
 
It's like stopping war, or poverty or whatever other plague one cares to mention. They're all what's called "wicked problems", with too many geopoliticosocioeconomic variables to accurately predict the outcome; no way of fully modelling it in advance and testing theories.

When faced with a wicked problem, it's much better to short-circuit the process. Just do what your gut tells you is right and focus on the short or medium term and let the long term take care of yourself. In this case, the "gut" reaction is to cure and figure out the rest of the problems that this decision generates afterward.

Wicked problems. Interesting way of phrasing that. Are you sure you're not from Boston? ;)

I don't get the reference?

As for the "wicked problem" name, sadly not an invention of my own. It's a concept invented by sociologists I think, though the management consultants love it too. It makes a lot of sense to me.

To think that there's anyone who would question the absolute good of a cancer cure is making me so fucking mad I'm afraid I might say something that will get me warned, so I am going to stop here.

T'Baio, did you pose your question to get a rise out of folks?

I think it's a very fair question.

The reason it's a wicked problem is because it's impossible to predict the outcome with accuracy and certainty.

The consequences of such a large shift in disease burden & mortality are impossible to predict, esp. if instituted overnight rather than a gradual process spread out over decades at least. They're certainly not all going to be good outcomes and it's eminently possible that the bad sequeential effects will outweight the good and net human suffering (if that's what you're concerned about) will actually increase as a result of curing cancer.

(of course there are also major problems here about defining and quantifying suffering, but that's also why it's a wicked problem)

As I mentioned earlier, the same argument applies to eliminating poverty, abolishing war, having immortality, etc, etc, etc. In a smaller form, the EXACT same wicked problem of unpredictable outcomes is being faced by Congress today when debating the economic stimulus package. It's all the same fundamental problem of being unable to accurately model effects.
 
It would only be bad for the next group in the sights of the media.

Curing any disease is never bad. We could have said the very same things about the eradication of smallpox or bubonic plagues.
 
Curing any disease is never bad. We could have said the very same things about the eradication of smallpox or bubonic plagues.

How do you know that it isn't the eradication of smallpox and subsequent population increase that hasn't made starvation and famine more prevalent?

And as for curing plague, the invention of antibiotics and subsequent reduction in infectious disease is a very direct reason for why rates of death from cancer shot up instead (people didn't die of infection but lived long enough to get cancer instead).

The point is you're judging the cure in isolation, whereas there are complex, systemic consequences.

Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't look for cures - as I mentioned earlier, since you can't actually solve a wicked problem, it's simplest to do what you FEEL is right. But I think it's important to be honest with ourselves that we don't - can't - really know the answers to these sort of social problems and most of our decision-making here is based partly (sometimes greatly) on faith and accepted ethical frameworks.
 
All those millions of people, not dying. Who would support them? Would our already fragile infrastructure, that is straining to make social security and pension payments as it is be able to keep up? What about the lack of rooms in old folks homes? People already talk of food shortages and water shortages. What would the impact to the environment be?

We should leave cancer alone and look into euthanasia for those suffering painfully. People need to die, just let them do it in peace.
If I recall correctly, you, like me, are a type one diabetic. You and I cold live for a few months at most without insulin, and our other supplies. Were insulin not developed, we'd have died years ago. Do you think we should leave diabetes well enough alone? Let the children diagnosed die? Stop our treatment so that we will die? If you died, that'd be one less person draining our resources!

And what about your own impact on the environment? Think of all that biohazardous waste you produce, what with the test strips you use several times a day -- and the bottles they come in, all those sharps boxes full of syringes, or those fab little insulin pens, all made of plastic. Think of the mounds of waste you produce each year to keep yourself alive.

Your suggestion is hypocritical.
 
Considering my sister has cancer and she's only thirty I think curing cancer is a good thing.
 
Curing any disease is never bad. We could have said the very same things about the eradication of smallpox or bubonic plagues.

How do you know that it isn't the eradication of smallpox and subsequent population increase that hasn't made starvation and famine more prevalent?

And as for curing plague, the invention of antibiotics and subsequent reduction in infectious disease is a very direct reason for why rates of death from cancer shot up instead (people didn't die of infection but lived long enough to get cancer instead).

The point is you're judging the cure in isolation, whereas there are complex, systemic consequences.

Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't look for cures - as I mentioned earlier, since you can't actually solve a wicked problem, it's simplest to do what you FEEL is right. But I think it's important to be honest with ourselves that we don't - can't - really know the answers to these sort of social problems and most of our decision-making here is based partly (sometimes greatly) on faith and accepted ethical frameworks.
I agree. On the surface, curing cancer sounds like a good idea. But, a total cure would bring about social changes that may present other problems.

My Dad and I had a conversation about this the other day and he made a point that I think bears repeating here. In the near future, we, as a society, are going to have to decide how much of our public resources we are going to devote to keeping people alive. As the baby boomer generation reaches old age, we are going to have more and more people near death who could have their lives extended a year or two with expensive medical treatments. This will become even more true as medical science advances. At the same time, public resources will be decreasing somewhat as that generation retires and the ratio of workers to retirees shrinks. We will have to decide if it is worth spending a few hundred thousand dollars on cancer treatments, or a heart transplant or whatever on someone who will live another 6 months without it, and another 2-5 years with it, or use that money to help younger people whose productive lives will be extended much more. At some point, the cost of doing both will be too great of a burden and a choice will have to be made. (Of course, this argument only applies to health care paid for by public resources. If someone has their own money for it, they can do whatever they want.)
 
^ Google up a "QALY", and you'll find that your future of rationing public healthcare on the basis of those sorts of arguments is already here. ;)

These problems can get very emotional & heated (which is either part of the problem or part of the solution, depending on your perpective). Personally, I don't find it too controversial an issue - most of human prograss hasn't come about because of solving problems but rather by finding workarounds. There's a difference there - "solving problems" implies an answer that's right; "finding workarounds" only requires an answer that satisfies.

Curing cancer may not be the right answer - we can't ever be sure of that. But it would be an answer that temporarily satisfied.

Humanity has the unique triad of being very myopic, very durable and enjoys running very fast. Sometimes you hit obstacles in your path because you don't see them coming, but you push through and keep running.

Curing cancer might throw up lots of negative consequences that might even outweigh the benefits, but humanity wouldn't look at that, and would just try to find an answer that satisfied those negatives. Such is progress.
 
I apologize for adding the flippant remark about leaving cancer alone at the end of my post...there I was being sarcastic and I can see how that may have colored the rest of my point with a very dark crayon.

Thanks to Holdfast for taking my point seriously and not personalizing it.

I do suffer from disease, and I have seen people die from cancer. So everyone can get off their high horse, thanks. It was a hypothetical question on the ramifications of a cure. Again, sorry for the sarcasm at the end. I know, it's read, not heard, it can be hard to tell.

You can close this if you want.
 
According to the "7 Days episode - "The Cure" " , yes,
Krista Henderson, a beautiful young doctor, finds a cure for cancer, but is murdered before she can tell the world. During the backstep, Parker discovers the murderer is a backstepper from the future who has been sent back to kill the doctor because her cure for cancer also unleashes a worldwide plague. Parker, who has fallen for the doctor, convinces the backstepper to let him be the one to kill her. Instead ,Parker goes on the run with Krista, trying to convince her to give up her research.


But I hope they do find a cure for all those who have suffered.
 
Saying that we shouldn't cure cancer because we're afraid of what will happen with all of the former patients, is a bunch of horseshit. You might just as well question why a fireman should save a baby from a burning building because you're afraid the kid *might* grow up to become a serial killer. It's IRRELEVANT. All that matters is curing the present ailment.

Of course curing cancer is a right answer. How could it not be? Cancer is a present problem, an immediate threat. It's a disease, and all diseases must be wiped out. Otherwise, why have doctors at all?

I can't believe this shit. We're supposed to let people die just for some sick, twisted way of thinning the fucking HERD? Hell, if that's your logic, why not let's just go all Kodos on their asses and shoot 4,000 people at random? How's about killing everyone over the age of [insert completely random number here]? Carousel! Renew! Renew! Give me a break. :rolleyes:
 
I am also at a loss to explain how anyone who has had personal experience with the ravages of cancer could pose such a question with a straight face. With that logic at work, you could just as easily say it was a mistake to eradicate polio and smallpox.

Aside from the obvious advantages, curing cancer would free a large part of the scientific community to focus resources on other diseases.
 
I am also at a loss to explain how anyone who has had personal experience with the ravages of cancer could pose such a question with a straight face.

Statistically, almost everyone will know someone who's died of cancer. I know I do. And chances are, it's going to be someone close. But it IS perfectly possible to compartmentalise personal feelings and experience from a wider theoretical proposition and consider the proposition from a different perspective. It's only by testing our beliefs from various perspectives that we can be sure they're correct.

All that matters is curing the present ailment.

Well, let's take this further... Why?

I suspect the core of your answer, if phrased in rational terms and stripped of emotional language, would be something like "to reduce the net suffering of humanity because reducing suffering is in itself a goal that is good".

Leaving aside issues of what is good, and accepting the answer on its own terms, there is still a problem. The counter-proposition would be that actually one can reduce net suffering to the most people by not curing, for all the possible reasons outlined above. As I said, this can't be calculated fully, but can be extensively theorised and extrapolated, which is why I would consider it a wicked problem and so we have to default to a pre-existing ethical framework rather than a rational analysis.

The ethical framework allows us bypass the rational analysis and short-circuit the problem, but is does not answer it. It just redefines it into non-existence.

In essence, the argument we use to try to cure cancer is NOT "to reduce global suffering" because we can't ever KNOW that would be a true outcome. Instead we choose to try to cure it because we redefine it to be either "reduce this individual's PRESENT suffering" (in the case of an active episode) or "because curing cancer itself, regardless of known outcome, should be a good" (in the case of preventive measure). This is something that I think is a redefinition that both of us could sign up to. I think T'Baio also could, because it allows for fairly neat bypass to his argument. Of course, as more data arrives, the equation may change, so we should be open to recalculation.

By the way, your analogy of the fireman/burning building is not a good one - you say that the counter-proposition for saving a life in that setting is uncertain potential for that one saved life to become a serial killer. But this misses the point here, which is about whether the outcome can be predicted and meaningfully theorised about. In this case, the statistical chance of the baby growing up to be a serial killer (or even more widely, a "bad person who increases net suffering") cannot be calculated by the fireman within the timeframe he has for making the decision. Therefore it is entirely right that the baby be saved, since without any ability to calculate the future outcome, the argument condenses into a much simpler one: save a life or not.

Deciding whether to trying to cure cancer is a more long-term question, involving decisions regarding funding, allocation of resources and depriving other areas of resources. Calculations & projections can be made of all of these issues, and many others. The calculations all have significant margins of errors and are often at best "guesstimates". But crucially - and this is the key difference - the guesstimates are not wholly without merit and therefore have to be taken into account when calculating net benefit or harm. The unpredictability/uncertainty but not total lack of merit, is precisely why the problem is wicked, whereas the more finite problem of the fireman/baby is not wicked but completely solvable (or if you prefer, completely insolvable) and in that technical sense, trivial.

(this of course leaves aside other ethical duties, such as the fireman's duty to do the job he is contracted to do, etc, etc, etc as they're not really central to the argument you presented and why you presented it.)
 
There already is a cure. All you have to do is share your body with a Tok'ra symbiote.
 
Cancers are so different that I predict they will be 'cured' group by group (with some perhaps never being overcome). If that turns out to be the case, then there won't be an immediate effect.
 
Is it as statistically important as we make out though?

1 in 5 men and 1 in 4 women in western society will die of cancer of some sort, but what percentage of those people were already very old and nearing the end of their lives anyway? What percentage of them may have died of other causes such as accident or other illness had they not been cured of cancer?

Seems like there's a large number of variables which could make that 1 in 4 statistic seem less threatening to society as a whole.

Please understand though, I have no idea what I am talking about, i'm just throwing that out there.
 
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