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If Buffy had ended with Season 5...

Yeah, but that's the whole point of her episodes in Angel Season 4. She knows she'll never be able to make up for what she did (just as Angel can never make up for what Angelus did). Maybe she should be in jail, maybe not. However, if she can be useful in the fight against evil, I'd rather see her doing that. Think of it as community service.
 
I enjoyed Seasons 6 and 7 too much to favor the show ending early. I still wish it had continued - haven't enjoyed anything newer on American commercial television nearly so much.
 
If the series had ended after "The Gift," we would have missed out on "Once More With Feeling" and the Dark Willow arc, but at least we would have been spared from the dreadfulness of Season 7.
 
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If Buffy would have ended with "The Gift", I would've been very disappointed. I loved seasons 6 and 7, loved all the character development in them, and I think BtVs was consistently great throughout (well, season 1 was weaker, but it was still pretty good, although the show really became great in season 2).

Besides, I don't think "The Gift" would have been a good ending at all. As they said in S5, "The hardest thing in this world is to live in it". Buffy in season 5 had just lost her mother and was forced to start living as an adult, without a parent figure, taking care of a sister, etc. If BtVS had ended with season 5, we would have been denied seeing Buffy and the other Scoobies out of their comfort zones, having to really deal with adulthood and real world on their own - trying to live in the world, and making mistakes, and failing, and facing their own demons, and trying again.

Yeah, but that's the whole point of her episodes in Angel Season 4. She knows she'll never be able to make up for what she did (just as Angel can never make up for what Angelus did). Maybe she should be in jail, maybe not. However, if she can be useful in the fight against evil, I'd rather see her doing that. Think of it as community service.
Agree. The whole point of the penitentiary system is to 1) protect the society from any further crimes that criminals could commit, 2) dissuade others from committing crimes, and 3) try to rehabilitate the criminals into acceptable members of the society. I don't think that anyone is "irredeemable" if they are able to understand the wrongness of their crimes, feel genuine remorse, and change in a positive way. The only ones who are irredeemable are those who are incapable of that.

The idea that some people 'deserve' to die or suffer forever because of the gravity of their crimes- whether or not they show remorse or ability to reform - strikes me as something that has a lot more to do with retribution and revenge rather than justice. It's an understandable human feeling, there are some evil acts that makes us so angry that we feel "this bastard needs to pay!", but the "eye for an eye" is really always pointless. Maybe we can get some sadistic pleasure out of the knowledge that a murderer is suffering, but what good does it do to anyone? It sure won't bring the dead people back or undo what has been done.

And if the choice is between a person (superpowered or not, it doesn't matter) atoning for their crimes by 1) being completely useless and suffering just because it's deemed that this is what they deserve, or 2) doing something good, I think the latter is the obvious choice. Even on the purely pragmatic level. There is no better way to atone for past evil than to stop doing evil and start doing good. How much does one need to do to make up for past crimes? How do you measure that? Does it even matter? The key is to make the choice to do good.
 
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Now, I can get why some people would prefer the show ending with Season 6 because of the season's risk-taking nature with the characters mostly dealing with mundane problems in life instead of routine supernatural threats, Buffy's journey of life after death and rebirth, Willow's downward spiral into dark magic, Giles feeling out of place, etc.

But I don't get is why people put Season 7 on such a pedestal. The storyline involving the Potential Slayers staying at Buffy's home wasn't really good, the First and Caleb weren't more than one-dimensional as villains, most of the characters' development of the past six seasons were put on hold for good, and the constant speeches being made in Season 7 were not only getting on my nerves but on the Potential Slayers' nerves as well. If it's only because of the series finale, I've watched it and there were moments there that felt false and forced in some way. Which is why I prefer Angel's "Not Fade Away" over that series finale because those moments were more natural and flowing from the season's buildup than forced.

If the show had ended with Season 6, I could have possibly lived with it because there were some signs of hope in the finale's final moments without the need of wrapping it all in a neat little bow.
 
5. Xander endangering the public by summoning the demon in OMWF, causing the deaths of several people

Which he didn't, if you paid attention to the plot of the show.

7. Buffy trying to kill her friends in "Normal Again"

Uh, demon-drug-induced insanity counts as a good defense, I'd say.

8. Buffy beating Spike black and blue and leaving him in the alley: You know that if it the genders were reversed and it was Biff the Vampire Slayer pounding the face of his secret vampire girlfriend Spiketta into a hamburger, there would have been angry letters to ME and screams of bloody murder, and if you tried to mention the fact that Spiketta told Biff "Put it all on me", you'd be condemned for condoning Domestic Abuse

Not from me. I would be saying the exact same thing: why isn't Spike/Spiketta dust yet!?

9. Xander's attempted murder of Spike for no other reason than having had consensual sex with Xander's ex after Xander had dumped her at the altar (and don't give me "he is not human so it's OK to do anything you want with him", that would just make Scoobies look like hypocrites who are perfectly content to have a supposedly 'sub-human' being around for brawn, sex, and whatever else they need at the moment and then kill him if they feel like it)...

Nope. It's not murder when you destroy a virus. It's not murder when you destroy a blight upon the world. The problem with this one is that was only the attempted dusting of a vampire. He should have been dust - multiple times over by that time, in fact.
 
If the show had ended with Season 6, I could have possibly lived with it because there were some signs of hope in the finale's final moments without the need of wrapping it all in a neat little bow.

I could have definitely lived with it.... IF I had known in advance what was to follow. I still remember how psyched I was for Season 7 to get started almost immediately after Season 6 ended. I could not have gone without more BtVS after that. Then Season 7 aired. Sure I bought Season 7 on DVD afterwards, and I do occasionally pull it off the shelf and watch, but not near to the extent that I do ALL of the other seasons. That said, Season 7 does remain easier to watch at one's own pace than at the mercy of the then UPN network's time schedule.
 
I loved the season seven finale - it seemed as if it were embedded in the very premise of the series, which in some unconscious sense it probably was.
 
I really like the finale, too. I just wish it was longer. The whole thing felt rushed, and I honestly hate that Spike was the one to save the day just so he could die and show up on Angel. I really like Spike as a character, but the whole amulet/Angel/Spike thing just screams deus ex machina, especially if you weren't watching Angel at the time to know where the thing even came from.
 
I really like the finale, too. I just wish it was longer. The whole thing felt rushed, and I honestly hate that Spike was the one to save the day just so he could die and show up on Angel. I really like Spike as a character, but the whole amulet/Angel/Spike thing just screams deus ex machina, especially if you weren't watching Angel at the time to know where the thing even came from.
I wasn't watching "Angel" at the time, and it works perfectly well if you have no idea where it came from (basically... it doesn't really matter). And the thing with Spike dying probably works better if you don't know that he is supposed to show up on "Angel"... Obviously, if you hadn't known he was supposed to show up on "Angel", you wouldn't have been thinking about it that way in the first place.

Someone said earlier in the thread that it shouldn't have been Spike who saved the day but Buffy. Why? Buffy did it already several times. Not only would it feel repetitive, but Buffy being the one to sacrifice herself and save the world over and over would be a rather lousy message: that it's always just about one hero, the one who has been 'chosen' long time ago? (With just some sidekicks along the way.) It's a much better story, IMO, if she can also inspire others and give them a chance to be heroes. All the better when it's someone that would've seemed a very unlikely candidate not a long time ago.

I agree that the finale felt a little rushed, though. Also, Angel was weirdly out of character, and his appearance felt a bit forced, like they just thought "oh, the series is ending, so we have to have Angel in it". And my biggest problem is that Buffy sharing power, while a great idea in theory, creates some issues that the ending doesn't address. (And Whedon probably realized that, too, since come of them are the topics of S8)
 
I really like the finale, too. I just wish it was longer. The whole thing felt rushed, and I honestly hate that Spike was the one to save the day just so he could die and show up on Angel. I really like Spike as a character, but the whole amulet/Angel/Spike thing just screams deus ex machina, especially if you weren't watching Angel at the time to know where the thing even came from.
I wasn't watching "Angel" at the time, and it works perfectly well if you have no idea where it came from (basically... it doesn't really matter).
It works, but it's lame as hell. Oh, Angel just randomly shows up in the knick of time with a magical amulet that will solve all their problems? BORING!

It actually works better, I think, if you know the whole point was to bring Spike over to the other show, but Buffy fans shouldn't have to know that. The amulet by itself is a lame plot device, especially since it wasn't given any background or explanation.


I agree that the finale felt a little rushed, though. Also, Angel was weirdly out of character, and his appearance felt a bit forced, like they just thought "oh, the series is ending, so we have to have Angel in it". And my biggest problem is that Buffy sharing power, while a great idea in theory, creates some issues that the ending doesn't address. (And Whedon probably realized that, too, since come of them are the topics of S8)

I don't think Angel was out of character at all. I think he was quite in character considering how he had evolved through 4 seasons on his own show.


Oh, and as for Buffy saving the day instead of Spike...meh. If anything, the new Slayers should have saved the day. Otherwise what was the point of activating them? I kept waiting and waiting for The First to somehow become corporeal so all the new Slayers could collectively kicks its ass. Instead, we have Spike wearing a magical amulet that makes him shoot vampire-killing laser beams out of his chest.
 
]I don't think Angel was out of character at all. I think he was quite in character considering how he had evolved through 4 seasons on his own show.
Come on, he was even using Xander-speak ("Captain Peroxide"?!)!
 
Definitely ended at the right time, happiness rather than heartbreak and think of all the wonderful eps we'd have missed in season 6&7

Chosen was the perfect ending
 
Chosen was the perfect ending for it's season, in that it encapsulated everything about the season, a mix of good, wtf, pointlessness and unrealised potential.
 
...and the constant speeches being made in Season 7 were not only getting on my nerves but on the Potential Slayers' nerves as well.

When Buffy said "Thus endeth the lesson" I wanted somebody to smack the shit out of her. :lol:
The show itself made fun of her speeches, like when Andrew stopped shooting when she started speaking - 'oh, she's giving another speech' :guffaw: The Potentials themselves were noticing her hypocrisy and were amused when she was trying to give them a black and white Watcher's Council view about vampires and demons vs humans, and her own behavior kept contradicting that the very next moment - with the way she was acted around Spike while giving speeches about how vampires are all the same and they're the enemy, or when she took the Potentials to the demon bar and talked about demons being all evil and dangerous, and then the next second she was hugging her buddy Clem. :lol: I thought we weren't supposed to think that her speeches were great, Buffy was always better at action than at speech, and if anything it was showing that she was lousy at trying to act like a Watcher to the girls.
 
Eh, I don't think the show was as consistently good after Season 5, but it was still worth watching. I think I probably like Season 6 better than 7 - it was something of a mess, but it felt more like the show I knew. Season 7 had a lot of new elements - Andrew, Robin, the potentials - and, not wishing to be conservative, but really I could have done without such a mass of characters. The plus side with Season 7 was Dawn finally becoming a good character.

I appreciated the spirit of the ending, although I could have lived without the destruction of Sunnydale. All things considered it worked pretty well for me.

Oh, and I liked Glory better than the Trio - there's only so much geekery I can take! ;)
 
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