The General Knight Rider thread.

[JD]

I didn't realize the network made them end the SD-6 storyline, I think that must be one of the only times where a network decision actually ended up making the show better.

I admit my ignorance of the American television landscape. Is procedural a more successful genre on network TV? From memory, of the most popular series on streaming platforms, only a very small percentage are procedurals (I think!).

I guess there's a certain comforting familiarity to them, plus you can just switch any episode on in any order and not be totally confused.

I think it's also because they tend to have a fairly simple premise, like following a NYPD homicide cops and their cases, or a team who investigates military related crimes. Things like that are going to be a lot easier for pretty much anyone to wrap their mind around, while something like The Rings of Power is going to be more limited in who it appeals to isn't going to have quite as much of quick and easy mass appeal right off the bat.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

But the fact remains that it wasn't the producers' plan, but something imposed by the network. Which just goes to show that network meddling isn't always bad.

Sometimes you need a outsiders view to prevent a storyline from dragging too long and to move onto something new.

If that means not beginning the story arc at the start of the season and ending it at the end of the season, so be it.

Not everything has to follow that formula, the fact that somebody is following a formula could be more disturbing then trying to have a variety of arc lengths.

 

[theenglish]

Still, I think my preference is for an episodic series with strong continuity -- something where the plots are episodic and the character development is serialized, and where one story's consequences are remembered and generate later stories or change the status quo in ways beyond merely driving a single long story arc.

This is actually my preference too. Streaming shows that carry a single story over one season or have a continuous story are only as good as the story, and often times they do the reverse by including filler shows to stretch out a thin story over the contracted number of episodes. Of course, there are a lot of really good shows like this that I enjoy, but I do miss the 20+ episode seasons.

 

[theenglish]

I guess there's a certain comforting familiarity to them, plus you can just switch any episode on in any order and not be totally confused.

Also, many procedural shows are written so that you can pick up the story at practically any point during an episode.

 

[Christopher]

This is actually my preference too. Streaming shows that carry a single story over one season or have a continuous story are only as good as the story, and often times they do the reverse by including filler shows to stretch out a thin story over the contracted number of episodes. Of course, there are a lot of really good shows like this that I enjoy, but I do miss the 20+ episode seasons.

I hate the whole idea of "filler" episodes. The problem with season-arc serialization is that it's created a perception that the only thing that matters in fiction is advancing the plot, so audiences dismiss the imporance of the other three classical fundamentals of drama, character, theme, and setting. The plot only matters if you care about the characters and their world, so that you care what happens to them. Episodes that develop the characters and their world on a smaller scale without moving the serial arc forward are not "filler," they're the real point of the exercise, the things that anchor the overall story arc and make it worth caring about.

One of the big problems with telling just one serialized story per season is that the heroes have to keep losing over and over until they finally win at the end. That's why people got the perception that Star Trek: Discovery and Picard were depressing or cynical, even though they had quite rosy and optimistic finales -- because you had to wait until the end before the characters finally got to win. This also bugged me about Superman & Lois. I didn't like seeing Superman lose over and over. A superhero show should let the hero succeed more often at rescuing people and helping people and saving the day. The Flash was good at that, using season-arc structures that were still built around episodic villains-of-the-week so that we could actually see the heroes save the day more than once per season.

 

[Skipper]

If there was a movie about KR, you know what I would like it to be?

There's an old tokusatsu series called Denjin Zaborger. The story is about a heroic protagonist who fights evil on his vehicle

The opening says everything you need to know about the series

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It was a cheesy series that took itself very seriously (well, like all Japanese live-action series of the time). Cool music, though!

Well, in 2011 they made a remake-reboot! The beginning of the film is set in the 70s (the era of the series!).

At a certain point, the protagonist makes a mess. Years pass, and he becomes a resentful and bitter middle-aged man. But the bad guys return, and it's time to pull Zabogar out of mothballs!

The film manages to strike a balance between affectionate homage, parody, and badassery! It pokes fun at the absurd seriousness of that type of series, but also manages to make us passionate about what happens to the protagonist.

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This is the beginning of the film which gives you an idea of what I mean

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[B.J.]

Still, I think my preference is for an episodic series with strong continuity -- something where the plots are episodic and the character development is serialized, and where one story's consequences are remembered and generate later stories or change the status quo in ways beyond merely driving a single long story arc.

I still think Babylon 5 hit the sweet spot there. The different episodes are very much separate and their own thing and much more memorable because of that, but the show definitely had consequences. Compare that to more recent shows like PIC or DSC, and I have a hard time remembering specific episodes because the whole season was basically a miniseries.

 

[AntonyF]

I loved Knight Rider as a kid. In an age where we have-self driving cars and AI it'll be interesting to see if Knight Rider feels relevant in this day and age and works... or just a bit of "so what".

Also I know I'm in the minority but I enjoyed the 2008 reboot. I think as I was able to see it as its own thing, inspired by the original. It was also from the creator of Las Vegas which I enjoyed, so that perhaps kind of warmed me up to the format and tone.

 

[theenglish]

I hate the whole idea of "filler" episodes. The problem with season-arc serialization is that it's created a perception that the only thing that matters in fiction is advancing the plot, so audiences dismiss the imporance of the other three classical fundamentals of drama, character, theme, and setting. The plot only matters if you care about the characters and their world, so that you care what happens to them. Episodes that develop the characters and their world on a smaller scale without moving the serial arc forward are not "filler," they're the real point of the exercise, the things that anchor the overall story arc and make it worth caring about.

I agree with both your points. There are many episodes in serialized stories that fit your above definition and are often well written and engaging. I can't recall off the top of my head, but there are also times when I watch an episode that just feels like it deals with a story that has been dragged out to fill time rather than insight into character, theme, or story. I think that the more recent trend of having episodes which vary in running time serves to alleviate this issue.

 

[Christopher]

I can't recall off the top of my head, but there are also times when I watch an episode that just feels like it deals with a story that has been dragged out to fill time rather than insight into character, theme, or story.

That's a fair point. Episodes can be "filler" if they don't have any substance beyond meeting a season-length quota, and that can happen if the writing staff is too preoccupied with the season arc at the expense of character, theme, and setting/worldbuilding. What I object to is the attitude many viewers have that anything not advancing a season arc is automatically "filler" independent of its quality, because too many people today apparently think that story is exclusively about plot and nothing else. And the preponderance of arc-driven television only reinforces that mistaken belief.

 

[Owain Taggart]

I don't like the term "filler" either as it automatically dismisses them as not worth our time. I prefer "standalone" as a term, and looking at DS9 as an example, some of the most memorable episodes turned out to be standalone episodes not connected to the narrative, and what they do is inform us about the characters and their motivations, but they do so in subverting our expectations. Things like Take Me out to the Holosuite. That one is just plain fun. And Far Beyond the Stars. Both of those are very memorable and they dared to break out of the box.

 

[Starkers]

I think the same applies to 'bottle shows' of course sometimes an episode can be a bottle show and filler.

I can think of some fantastic bottle shows over the years!

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

But what many call "Bottle Shows" or Filler have been very entertaining IMO, some of this past seasons of SNW would have many eps that are "Bottle Shows" and I found to be quite fun to watch.

 

[Christopher]

But what many call "Bottle Shows" or Filler have been very entertaining IMO, some of this past seasons of SNW would have many eps that are "Bottle Shows" and I found to be quite fun to watch.

Those are two different things. A bottle show is an episode designed to be shot quickly and inexpensively by limiting it to the standing sets and having few guest stars or visual effects -- for instance, Star Trek: TNG's "The Drumhead" or DS9's "Duet," or the Leverage episode that was named "The Bottle Job" because it was a bottle episode set in the show's standing bar set and dealing with alcoholism. People often think the term refers to bottling the characters up within a few sets, but when Leslie Stevens (producer of The Outer Limits among others) coined the term, he meant it in the sense of something that could be made as quickly as easily as if it were pulled out of a bottle.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Those are two different things. A bottle show is an episode designed to be shot quickly and inexpensively by limiting it to the standing sets and having few guest stars or visual effects -- for instance, Star Trek: TNG's "The Drumhead" or DS9's "Duet," or the Leverage episode that was named "The Bottle Job" because it was a bottle episode set in the show's standing bar set and dealing with alcoholism. People often think the term refers to bottling the characters up within a few sets, but when Leslie Stevens (producer of The Outer Limits among others) coined the term, he meant it in the sense of something that could be made as quickly as easily as if it were pulled out of a bottle.

IC

 

[bdub76]

With only 8 episodes available, there isn't a lot of time available for filler.

However, you do have shows like Father Brown, where they'll bring in a cast of characters for roughly three seasons that will develop over the course of those three seasons and then move on. And since each episode is pretty much stand alone, you get bits and pieces of character development with most of the time spent with the murder of the week.

Sometimes I like watching a cozy murder mystery like Father Brown. Other times I want to see a story from beginning to end. For that right now, I'm watching Orphan Black and Task.

The other extreme is a show like the PITT, where the whole show takes place over the course of one shift, so there isn't a whole lot of time for character development. The show gets away with it a bit with flashbacks, but it's mostly a non-stop thriller with some episodes catching your breath.

I think, the show has to decide upfront what is plans to do and run with it. And then as viewers, we have to decide if that's for us or not. If the show tries to mix these up, it's likely to run out of time and leave the audience frustrated. That was my experience with the last season of Doctor Who.

I'm pretty sure if KR comes back. It's will be procedural.

 

[DarrenTR1970]

But what many call "Bottle Shows" or Filler have been very entertaining IMO, some of this past seasons of SNW would have many eps that are "Bottle Shows" and I found to be quite fun to watch.

Those are two different things. A bottle show is an episode designed to be shot quickly and inexpensively by limiting it to the standing sets and having few guest stars or visual effects -- for instance, Star Trek: TNG's "The Drumhead" or DS9's "Duet," or the Leverage episode that was named "The Bottle Job" because it was a bottle episode set in the show's standing bar set and dealing with alcoholism. People often think the term refers to bottling the characters up within a few sets, but when Leslie Stevens (producer of The Outer Limits among others) coined the term, he meant it in the sense of something that could be made as quickly as easily as if it were pulled out of a bottle.

From page 86 of 'The Outer Limits: The Official Companion' -
No one believed Leslie Stevens when he proposed to complete an Outer Limits episode in four days . . . until he went ahead and did it. The skeleton of "Controlled Experiment" was typed up by Stevens on a New York to LA flight, and the show took four and a half shooting days to complete. At $100,000, it was the cheapest Outer Limits ever. Stevens dubbed this last-minute life saving technique the "bottle show" - as in pulling an episode right out of bottle, like a genie.

 

[theenglish]

That's a fair point. Episodes can be "filler" if they don't have any substance beyond meeting a season-length quota, and that can happen if the writing staff is too preoccupied with the season arc at the expense of character, theme, and setting/worldbuilding. What I object to is the attitude many viewers have that anything not advancing a season arc is automatically "filler" independent of its quality, because too many people today apparently think that story is exclusively about plot and nothing else. And the preponderance of arc-driven television only reinforces that mistaken belief.

I agree with you.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

From page 86 of 'The Outer Limits: The Official Companion' -
No one believed Leslie Stevens when he proposed to complete an Outer Limits episode in four days . . . until he went ahead and did it. The skeleton of "Controlled Experiment" was typed up by Stevens on a New York to LA flight, and the show took four and a half shooting days to complete. At $100,000, it was the cheapest Outer Limits ever. Stevens dubbed this last-minute life saving technique the "bottle show" - as in pulling an episode right out of bottle, like a genie.

If it works, it works.
I have nothing against "Bottle Shows" as long as it's entertaining for what it's trying to do.

 

[Christopher]

If it works, it works.
I have nothing against "Bottle Shows" as long as it's entertaining for what it's trying to do.

Well, that's the point, really -- "bottle show" is not an assessment of a story's content or worth, merely a category based on production considerations and logistics. Budget-saving bottle shows like "The Drumhead" or "Duet" or "Shuttlepod One" are often among the most intense, compelling episodes, because they force the writers to focus on drama and character rather than action and spectacle.