I think my girlfriend is a Christian! Advice needed.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In my opinion "a belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence" describes religious belief. Therefore, religious belief = delusion.

Perhaps there is no evidence that God DOES exist, but neither is there any evidence that He does not. So belief in God does not seem to qualify as delusion. Lack of evidence in favor of something is not the same as the presence of evidence against that thing...

For example, belief that the Patriots won the Super Bowl IS a delusion, because there is of course irrefutable proof that they lost. Not the same thing here. There is no absolute proof that God does not exist. So belief in Him may be based on faith, but it's not flying in the face of any 'superior evidence'.

MadBaggins, I once dated a Christian girl. It was fine, until I wanted to have sex, and she wanted to have sex but her religiosity wouldn't let her have sex ("sometimes I wish God didn't exist so we could have sex.").

Which is sad, really, because that's a prohibition that does not exist. Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say that sex outside of marriage is, or even should be, forbidden. (There are warnings against 'sexual immorality' but I interpret that to mean just, well, don't cheat, don't trick people, that type of thing.) It's strictly a personal choice to make.

 

[ThankQ]

In my opinion "a belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence" describes religious belief. Therefore, religious belief = delusion.

Perhaps there is no evidence that God DOES exist, but neither is there any evidence that He does not. So belief in God does not seem to qualify as delusion. Lack of evidence in favor of something is not the same as the presence of evidence against that thing...

I did not say "God", I said religion. This is an important distinction.

If we, for a moment, strip the religion from around God, you are correct. Taking a pure concept of a God, with none of the pomp and circumstance of religion attached to it, you are mostly correct in saying that there is no evidence to prove or disprove.

But I'm not talking about God. I'm talking about religion, and since Christianity is the religion in question (it applies to all, but most of us here are most familiar with Christianity) then there is vast, overwhelming evidence that it is an invention of man and a blatant plagiarism of religions that existed before Christianity (We can take it to TNZ if you want to debate specifics, I don't think MISC could handle it )

For example, belief that the Patriots won the Super Bowl IS a delusion, because there is of course irrefutable proof that they lost. Not the same thing here. There is no absolute proof that God does not exist. So belief in Him may be based on faith, but it's not flying in the face of any 'superior evidence'.

I left this in because I like the argument, but again, I'm not saying there's superior evidence that God does not exist, I'm saying there's superior evidence that religion, specifically Christianity since it's the topic here and we're most familiar with it, is an invention of man.

 

[Holdfast]

If you think shes deluded, you don't respect her.

I disagree. Circle gets the square!

A delusion is a belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence

Unless there is perfectly adjusted person among us, we ALL have delusions. Most of the guys who post in MISC that they can't find a girl have delusions about their own self-worth/self-value--they think their worth less as a person than they actually are. That's a delusion. There are beautiful women who think all men only want them for sex and that it's impossible to find someone who will cherish them as a person. That's a delusion.

We all see the world through our own filters, and those filters are not perfect. We are all deluded about something in some way.

I am of the opinion that all religious people are deluding themselves. Someone is going to come in and say that's a gross (in two meanings of the word) generalization. It is not. In my opinion "a belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence" describes religious belief. Therefore, religious belief = delusion. It's not a generalization; it's a definition.

If you think shes deluded, you don't respect her.

While I think that religious beliefs are delusions, I have respect for a great number of religious people. To think someone has a delusion does not preclude you from respecting them. If that were the case, no one could respect anyone.

I think people are thinking of "delusional" in the same way as demented (being in the state of dementia). A delusion is confined to one specific area of thought or belief.

You're missing a crucial aspect to the definition of a delusion. Delusions have a "triple lock" on them or they can't be defined as such. They have to:

- be fixed in their nature i.e. you can't argue someone out of it
- held contrary or in the absence of evidence i.e. they're irrational and proof to the contrary is irrelevant
- be culturally inconsistent.

This last point is what exempts mainstream religious beliefs of any sort from being delusional. Technically they simply cannot be delusional in the psychiatric sense as they are culturally consistent. Both DSM and ICD are very explicit about this.

Of course, thoughtful readers will note the potential for a vast range of shades of grey around this point, which there indeed is. And there is also a wider cross-cultural political element too. Experience matters in judging these issues in cases where there is doubt, as does discussion and careful interviewing.

(What am I doing posting actual content in an Baggins thread....? )

 

[JarodRussell]

So far, all the atheists I've been together were horrible human beings, and the religious ones weren't. I don't know if there's a correlation, it's just my personal observation.

 

[Kirby]

Mad Baggins start by giving her your Stone Cold Stunner, and then rest will take care of itself.

 

[Squiggy]

I just knew that if I didn't masturbate for a couple of nights, our Lord Jesus would repay me.

OH YES!

 

[ThankQ]

So far, all the atheists I've been together were horrible human beings, and the religious ones weren't. I don't know if there's a correlation, it's just my personal observation.

I'd like to think you're just jumping on the Spirit of MB bandwagon, but if I'm remembering the right username, I can't be certain.

 

[DonIago]

I just knew that if I didn't masturbate for a couple of nights, our Lord Jesus would repay me.

OH YES!

Did Squiggy just preach the merits of abstinence?

 

[Alrik]

I just knew that if I didn't masturbate for a couple of nights, our Lord Jesus would repay me.

OH YES!

Did Squiggy just preach the merits of abstinence?

Don't read too much into it. I'm thinking Squigs was the one being delusional this time. I'm sure the masterbation those couple of nights was non-stop. It's ok, Squig, you're Rep is safe.

 

[MadBaggins]

........

I've been a Christian most of my life, and I've been in a relationship with an atheist for over eight years now (known him for nearly eleven years, but we had a two year break). He's been very respectful, as anyone should be, as I am to him.

Hmm, you've given me some hope that maybe it could work between us, even when the truth comes out. Thank you.

This has serious long term potential. What you're going to want to do is slowly but surely indoctrinate her into atheism while pushing away all of her Christian influences, even her parents if need be. Worst comes to worst you lock her in a room and force her to watch Richard Dawkins video clips a la A Clockwork Orange.

I've thought doing this, but I'd have to be really subtle. She's quite strong-willed and stubborn and would try to argue with me if I just came out and told her the facts about her beliefs. Ideally I'd want to teach her about atheism without her even knowing I'm doing it, like leaving little atheist clues around for her to find, like breadcrumbs. But this sounds hard.

Now forgive me I'm being old fashioned and if I'm too lenient on her since I'm Christian as well. But the way i figure it, for the love of whatever the hell you believe in, just let her believe what she wants. If atheism changed your life, fine. Good for you. If she wants to be "deluded", let her.

As long as you both respect each other's faith, or lack there of, I don't think anything will go tits up.

I didn't mean "deluded" as an insult. I just couldn't think of a word that meant the exact same thing but didn't look as insulting. I should have checked a theosaurus. If you watch some of Dawking's work (and there's a lot of it!) he really lays out step by step the ways people become religious. I don't blame them for being fooled.

What is this? There's a guy in my class who was watching it on YouTube. He doesn't talk to people much and I thought it was weird he was watching a kids show. Is it actually for adults? Is it like South Park?

MadBaggins, I once dated a Christian girl. It was fine, until I wanted to have sex, and she wanted to have sex but her religiosity wouldn't let her have sex ("sometimes I wish God didn't exist so we could have sex."). Then things became tense and not very much fun because I could have been getting laid if not for "God."

That sounds like HELL (if Hell was real, which it's not IMHO.)


Anyway, I saw her again today. I didn't want to just come out and ask her if she was a Christian yet, as I really enjoy spending time with her and wanted to be absolutely sure first. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out a way to get her to reveal her religious beliefs without asking today, so much time that I think she was wondering why I wasn't talking to her.

After class I was talking to a few guys I'm friends with when she came over. They were talking about movies so I said I really want to see the new Underworld movie and they said they did too and would see it with me. I turned to my girl friend (I'm not going to call her my "girlfriend" now as I realize I don't have the right to when I'm being dishonest to her, so I'll call her the more accurate "girl friend" until we get to the next level) to ask if she wanted to go with us but she looked aghast! She said "how can you like that vampire garbage?" I said that Underworld isn't like Twilight and doesn't have sparkly vampires and Jacob and Ashley Greene and whatever else Twilight has (I've never seen it of course.) But then she said "no, I mean any of that vampire refuse...it's urgh." I was about to say "even Buffy!?" when I remembered that a lot of religious people object to vampire stuff for religious reasons! I didn't know what to say and just kind of stood there and she walked off. I could have told her the real reason I wanted to see it is because Kate Beckinsale is the most beautiful woman I've ever seen but that probably would have made her jealous lol.

I was going to run after her but I didn't know what to say. I felt now in my mind that I was 99% to 100% sure that she was definitely a Christian. But is it possible that someone could hate all vampire fiction for others reasons?

I really need to get to the bottom of this soon because I can feel myself losing her. She must think I'm weird because of the way I've been acting around her lately and I know she's not the kind of girl to suffer fools for long.

 

[ThankQ]

I should have checked a theosaurus.

I believe they have a reconstructed fossil at the Smithsonian.

I was going to run after her but I didn't know what to say. I felt now in my mind that I was 99% to 100% sure that she was definitely a Christian. But is it possible that someone could hate all vampire fiction for others reasons?

For the love of God, yes it is possible.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I was going to run after her but I didn't know what to say. I felt now in my mind that I was 99% to 100% sure that she was definitely a Christian. But is it possible that someone could hate all vampire fiction for others reasons?

Maybe she's a vampire and she doesn't like the way her people have been represented in fiction? You know, like how many Italian-Americans don't like mafia stories? You should investigate this.

 

[Trekker4747]

I was going to run after her but I didn't know what to say. I felt now in my mind that I was 99% to 100% sure that she was definitely a Christian. But is it possible that someone could hate all vampire fiction for others reasons?

Maybe she's a vampire and she doesn't like the way her people have been represented in fiction? You know, like how many Italian-Americans don't like mafia stories? You should investigate this.

I agree. Go around asking Italian-Americans how they feel the mafia's portrayal in the media harms them. We must have answers and you, Baggins, are just the person to do it!

 

[Vendikarr]

You gotta pull the band aid off. Sit her down and tell her you like her, and want to get to know her better. Then ask her if you can ask her some questions, volunteering to answer anything you ask. Ask about favorite animal, favorite color, dog person or cat person, which side of the bed does she sleep on (as in if we ever get together like that it helps to know if we are compatible).

Then bring up religion. Ask her denomination, and how important religion is in her life. Volunteer you don't believe, but don't try and tell her she is wrong. A strongly religious person may choose to part ways then and there.

If you can accept the differences, and if she can, move it forward, otherwise part ways amicably.

 

[ThankQ]

I was going to run after her but I didn't know what to say. I felt now in my mind that I was 99% to 100% sure that she was definitely a Christian. But is it possible that someone could hate all vampire fiction for others reasons?

Maybe she's a vampire and she doesn't like the way her people have been represented in fiction? You know, like how many Italian-Americans don't like mafia stories? You should investigate this.

I agree. Go around asking Italian-Americans how they feel the mafia's portrayal in the media harms them. We must have answers and you, Baggins, are just the person to do it!

I think Brooklyn would be the best place to start.

 

[Trekker4747]

Anywhere in New Jersey, in strip clubs, places like that.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

My advice to Madbaggins is to float the idea of a threesome to her. If she's up for it, then you know she's not a Christian. If she's not, then maybe you can talk her into it and condemn her to Hell anyway. Either way, you've wrangled an orgy out of it.

(Whether it's two guys or two girls is your prerogative, of course.)

 

[Alpha Romeo]

I hear sex with your cousin is the norm for Christian college girls...you should be all set.

 

[ThankQ]

My advice to Madbaggins is to float the idea of a threesome to her.

Once again, first be sure. Never know, some day you may want the Republican nomination.

 

[Darth Duck]

MadBaggins, I once dated a Christian girl. It was fine, until I wanted to have sex, and she wanted to have sex but her religiosity wouldn't let her have sex ("sometimes I wish God didn't exist so we could have sex.").

Which is sad, really, because that's a prohibition that does not exist. Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say that sex outside of marriage is, or even should be, forbidden. (There are warnings against 'sexual immorality' but I interpret that to mean just, well, don't cheat, don't trick people, that type of thing.) It's strictly a personal choice to make.

You mean I wasn't having sex because a guy in the sky didn't want har to have sex, but it was because her father said a guy in the sky didn't want her to have sex. Somehow that's even worse.

MadBaggins, I once dated a Christian girl. It was fine, until I wanted to have sex, and she wanted to have sex but her religiosity wouldn't let her have sex ("sometimes I wish God didn't exist so we could have sex."). Then things became tense and not very much fun because I could have been getting laid if not for "God."

That sounds like HELL (if Hell was real, which it's not IMHO.)

Hell is real.

My advice to Madbaggins is to float the idea of a threesome to her. If she's up for it, then you know she's not a Christian.

I tried that. She didn't go for it. Which is kinda funny considering her later interest in women.