I think Joss Whedon is over-rated!

[cultcross]

Joss Whedon is probably my favourite TV producer/creator/whatever he is of the last decade or two. No, he's not perfect. As it's the topic of the thread, I'll offer up my least favourite aspect of Whedon: an inability to let go. Either of an idea (Buffy reached a natural end, so did we really need those godawful comics?) or, particularly, cast (getting a bit tired of seeing Eliza Dushku's name in the credits).
But despite his flaws, he has brought about Buffy, Angel, and Firefly, add BSG and Doctor Who and you've got my favourite TV shows of the last fifteen years. I've got to admire him for that. As others have said, he thrives on turning cliché on its head, creating scenarios and characters who defy tradition, defy expectation, and are genuinely engaging, interesting and three dimensional. Sure, not every one of his efforts succeeds, every Buffy fan can point to a weak episode (All the Way) or character (Riley Finn), or a storyline that was perhaps ill advised. But the overall contribution Whedon has made is definitely worthy of praise.
Imitation, as they say, is the sincerest form of flattery, and nearly everything he does, in style and in substance, is mercilessly mimicked across the entertainment spectrum. Just today, I saw an ad on British channel Virgin1 for a TV show about a PI who... is also a vampire!

 

[Bob The Skutter]

^That would be Moonlight, already been cancelled.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Just today, I saw an ad on British channel Virgin1 for a TV show about a PI who... is also a vampire!

The minute I saw that, I said to myself, "somebody has got to have thought of that gimmick before Whedon" and sure enough, five seconds of googling turned up The Vampire Files, first published in 1990.

Betcha someone can beat 1990 as the genesis of the vampire/PI genre, if anyone wants to take up the challenge.

 

[Lindley]

What I liked about Angel was that it was never about what they did. It was about who they were. That's why they could get away with the format change in season 5; by that time they'd dropped the PI pretense pretty much entirely anyway.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Just today, I saw an ad on British channel Virgin1 for a TV show about a PI who... is also a vampire!

The minute I saw that, I said to myself, "somebody has got to have thought of that gimmick before Whedon" and sure enough, five seconds of googling turned up The Vampire Files, first published in 1990.

Betcha someone can beat 1990 as the genesis of the vampire/PI genre, if anyone wants to take up the challenge.

Probably, but the TV series Forever Knight in '96 is probably more relevant to Angel.

 

[Daneel]

Overrated? Perhaps by some. There are a vocal minority of fans who have elevated Whedon to the status of near-divinity, but most of us fans are able to acknowledge that not everything he's done is perfect (as a few have already done in this thread).

Me, I love a lot of Whedon's work: I consider Buffy, Angel, and Firefly to be amongst the best TV shows of the past 15 years. The characters are interesting and well-written, the dialogue is very snappy, and the plots are refreshing, entertaining, and free of the usual clichés. Sure, Whedon has had a few missteps in his time, but on the whole, I do think he is one of the best genre writers out there, and I'm personally very glad that I discovered his shows.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Whedon's not overrated. I think he's brilliant and funny and his work is vastly more entertaining than most of what's called fantasy or science fiction on television, and I've rated him exactly right.

 

[Ethros]

Is Joss Whedon overrated?
Depends if you like him or not


My question would be, why are people who don't like him such dicks? Not because of their general opinion, one can like or dislike whatever one wants, but in 90% of those folk on this board, their general twatiness attitude when the subject comes up

 

[The Wormhole]

Buffy the Vampire Slayer is overrated. Whedon himself proved his worth with Firefly and Serenity.

 

[nevermore]

I've never much enjoyed his writing and the humor in his shows has never been to my liking at all. He seems like a nice guy, though, and he's a BSG fan so that helps.

This. Seriously, dispite what other attributes his shows might have, I simply have never managed to get through more than 15 minutes of any of them before being driven away by the constant barrage of insufferably clever quips. I just makes me want to drive an ice pick through my skull.

 

[Harvey]

I liked Firefly, but I didn't love it, and was so fed up with rabid fans who insisted it was the best thing ever committed to celluloid that it took me years to finally pick up the DVDs. And for all the complaints about creative meddling by FOX, Serenity points out that all that meddling might not have been a bad thing after all.

But, in person, Whedon strikes me as a gracious and intelligent man. And since I haven't seen anyone in this thread hold him up as divinity (in fact, you'll find plenty of criticism of Dollhouse in these forums, which I have not had the pleasure of seeing yet) I don't think he's overrated.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

The most impressive thing I've seen from Whedon is the cast of characters he created for Firefly (and although they were also well cast, imagine them on paper, not yet with actors playing them).

The cast spans an interesting range of character types, with interesting potential for interaction even between characters we didn't see interact much in its short run. Even though it's a large cast, Whedon managed to limit the overlap between characters so nobody seems redundant or useless.

I think he's got every human quality represented: naivete, greed, insanity, lust, resentment, faith, professionalism, love, cowardace, family devotion, militarism, snobbery, cynicism, and the impulse to be free.

Hmm, I think Jayne alone is responsible for about half that list.

I have to agree. Firefly was an interesting, but highly flawed show. It's greatest strength, though, was its cast of characters -- without which a large amount of the humor would have fallen flat.

As for whether or not he's over-rated ... considering the unusually high-level of fanaticism for a show like, say, Firefly, I'd say yeah, he's probably overrated. But that doesn't mean isn't talented or that he hasn't had his share of success, mind you.

 

[USS Kongo]

It was a friend of mine (Forbin, actually!) who got me hooked on Buffy back during its second season, and I've been hooked ever since. Buffy The Vampire Slayer remains one of my favorite shows. Hush, the creepy silent episode with the gentlemen as well as the musical Once More With Feeling are my all-time faves.

I could never warm up to Angel, however. Watched the first season and part of the second before I gave up on it.

I loved Firefly--I really enjoyed the fact that it was the anti-Star Trek, with a crew of lovable misfits who were just scrambling around, trying to survive as best they could. And I thought that Serenity was the perfect bookend for the series.

I avoided Dollhouse like the plague at first, because I figured Fox would cancel it immediately. I finally saw it on DVD, and liked it enough to want to follow its second season. Epitaph One was a fascinating look into a very dark future.

If anything, I think Whedon is vastly underrated.

Sean

 

[Kelthaz]

As for whether or not he's over-rated ... considering the unusually high-level of fanaticism for a show like, say, Firefly, I'd say yeah, he's probably overrated. But that doesn't mean isn't talented or that he hasn't had his share of success, mind you.

Firefly only has that level of fanaticism because of how it ended. Invader Zim and Megas XLR get the same treatment. Fans really hate it when a promising show is killed extremely early by idiot executives; it has little to do with Whedon being attached.

 

[Lindley]

Firefly only has that level of fanaticism because of how it ended.

Plus a certain resonance between the fate of the show and the theme of the show.

Heck, the last aired lines were even:
"We're still flying."
"That's not much...."
"It's enough."

 

[Greylock Crescent]

As for whether or not he's over-rated ... considering the unusually high-level of fanaticism for a show like, say, Firefly, I'd say yeah, he's probably overrated. But that doesn't mean isn't talented or that he hasn't had his share of success, mind you.

Firefly only has that level of fanaticism because of how it ended. Invader Zim and Megas XLR get the same treatment. Fans really hate it when a promising show is killed extremely early by idiot executives; it has little to do with Whedon being attached.

True, but then again, I seriously doubt a series like Dollhouse would have been given a second season without the 'Joss Whedon' moniker. It may eventually blossom into a solid series ... and maybe it's just good karma for Firefly being canceled. But season one was still a *very* rocky start, hardly worthy of all the general praise heaped upon Whedon's "brilliance".

Like I said though, the guy does have talent and has been successful. Can't argue with that.

 

[Lindley]

There's no question that Dollhouse isn't up to his previous standards.

But then, he hadn't been developing it for years like he was the other three.

 

[Lindley]

I also like the women he uses in his shows...

Then check out a movie called Death In Love....

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

There's no question that Dollhouse isn't up to his previous standards.

I don't know that I agree. It is deeply weird and offputting. It may actually be more thoughtful and less pat than...well, most things on TV in this country, much less his previous output. All of that remains to be seen, however, depending on where the series goes and how it ends up.

 

[davejames]

Overrated? Perhaps by some. There are a vocal minority of fans who have elevated Whedon to the status of near-divinity, but most of us fans are able to acknowledge that not everything he's done is perfect (as a few have already done in this thread).

Me, I love a lot of Whedon's work: I consider Buffy, Angel, and Firefly to be amongst the best TV shows of the past 15 years. The characters are interesting and well-written, the dialogue is very snappy, and the plots are refreshing, entertaining, and free of the usual clichés. Sure, Whedon has had a few missteps in his time, but on the whole, I do think he is one of the best genre writers out there, and I'm personally very glad that I discovered his shows.

Agreed. Whedon may not be the second coming or anything, but have you guys forgotten all the generic, cliched, one-dimensional writing we usually got in our scifi back then?! VOY, Stargate, Sliders, Earth: FC, Zena...

I don't know how any self-respecting scifi fan could NOT have been impressed by the witty, fresh, and original writing of Whedon's shows in comparison.

I mean, for me it was a HUGE fucking breath of fresh air-- characters that weren't complelely predictable and evolved over the course of the series, dialogue that was like nothing ever heard on TV before, and story arcs that always kept you guessing about where they'd go next (yeah I know X-Files and B5 did some of those things, but they weren't NEARLY as much fun).