I think Joss Whedon is over-rated!

[23skidoo]

Since someone ELSE opened the Pandora's Box...

I've nothing personally against the guy, and I did enjoy Angel and the occasional Buffy episode. It's the fans who generally have given me a bad taste in my mouth. On a few occasions on this very forum I was flamed for stating my opinion (which has not changed) that Firefly was a bad show. I tried watching it and I just found the dialogue and other elements did not work for me. And this despite the fact that I really liked members of the cast. For heaven's sake, Ron Glass was in it! Plus you had Summer Glau, Jewel Staite, Nathan Fillion -- I'm interested in the remake of V in part because Morena Baccarin is in it. But I simply could not warm to the show. And I was called a retard for being critical of it (that didn't happen on this forum).

I am of the opinion that the over-the-top fanbase with regards to Whedon - which came to a climax with Firefly - was in part a reaction to the fact Trek was collapsing at the time Firefly came out at a time when the Trek fanbase wanted something that the current TV regime couldn't provide (and I don't think it was physically possible at the time for anything to be done, even if Whedon himself had taken over Trek). So people latched onto it with meat hooks. Same with Battlestar Galactica, to a degree. BSG was a fantastic show but I fully disagree with the statements made at the time that it was "a new kind of SF" and "revolutionary". No it wasn't. Not in the slightest. But it was a good show and provided an anti-Trek in a more successful (read: longer-lasting) fashion than Firefly.

I do think Whedon is overrated, but I don't dislike the guy. And he actually went up a few points in my estimation when he was quoted as saying the better of the two Friday-night shows was cancelled by Fox. I happen to agree with him, as Dollhouse is another one I just can't warm to, though I do at least plan to watch Summer's episodes, so it has another chance to win me over.

Alex

 

[Forbin]

Hardly anybody watches his shows, they keep getting cancelled. How can he be overrated?

"Keep getting cancelled"?!?!

"Hardly anybody"!?!??!!??

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Hardly anybody watches his shows, they keep getting cancelled. How can he be overrated?

"Keep getting cancelled"?!?!

"Hardly anybody"!?!??!!??

Both statements are fairly accurate... Angel was cancelled, Firefly was cancelled, Dollhouse I don't see lasting next seasons, and according to commentaries they even thought about putting a "to be cancelled" banner at the end of Epitaph One.

Here in the UK Firefly got less than 1m views on a regular basis, and Dollhouse less than 300,000 for most of it's run I believe.

 

[mimic]

I also agree that he's overrated and I'm speaking as someone who loves Firefly (and to a lesser degree, Serenity).

I believe you're also speaking as someone who refuses to ever look at Buffy and Angel.

I have yet to see a Whedon show I haven't liked. I do wish the guy would let a relationship actually work out for once and you also tend to see the same archetypes in his shows (Xander/Wash/Topher) but he consistently entertains me.

 

[Forbin]

Anti-cliche-ridden, actually. He's always been about taking the cliches and then doing the opposite, ever since the beginning. The very concept of Buffy was to take the "blond girl enters dark alley and is killed by monster" cliche and turn it around to "blond girl enters dark alley and kicks monster ass."

I point to the first season classic "The Puppet Show." We're handed the old Twilight Zone cliche of a possessed ventriloquist dummy, lead to believe that it's a rampaging killer demon, then get the whole thing turned on its head.

As a fan, I'm not going to say Whedon is 100% infallible or 100% genius. Like any writer, he has his share of dogs. But when he does diplay those particular attributes his work can be rather astonishingly good. "The Body" may be the single most powerfully written, filmed and acted 45 minutes of TV ever. The Buffy musical is not only a good musical, it's also a good spoof of musicals and homage to musicals, plus it's a pivotal arc episode.

On the other hand, Buffy's last two seasons were ass, and I couldn't stand the last three of Angel.

The reality is probably somewhere in the middle, as always, between the gushing and the hating. The man's good at his job and has created a lot of things that people enjoy, but not everybody enjoys everything he's made.

Whaddayagonnado?

 

[Mr. Adventure]

In many of his shows It's the fact that the actors bond so well and invest much into their characters to make the shows better than average.

That may not just be coincidental.

 

[clint g]

Yeah, I never got the love for him either. I sort of enjoyed the first few seasons of Buffy but I was never hooked and I definitely don't get why people like him so much

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

What definition of over-rated are we going with here?

"Overrated" is geekspeak for "I hate it and everyone who likes it is an idiot".

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I think part of it is that sense that Joss is "one of us" and so there's some geeky bonding thing there among the fanbase. Also, I think many watched Buffy at an age where there was the teen-ager/young adult bonding as well where those characters spoke to them. I've liked much of the guy's work but I think that might factor into the "overrated" feeling some associate with him.

 

[bigdaddy]

Well... yes. All people who are good and successful at their jobs end up getting overpraised sooner or later.

The only successful thing he has ever done was Buffy.

I completely agree, the only thing I like that he has ever done was Firefly because it was crazy and different.

Hell he worked on Alien 4... need I say more?

 

[sidious618]

I've never much enjoyed his writing and the humor in his shows has never been to my liking at all. He seems like a nice guy, though, and he's a BSG fan so that helps.

 

[amdmiami]

Haters!

I personally really enjoy his work and Buffy is my favorite TV show of all time, so I don't think he's over rated. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[Pingfah]

Hardly anybody watches his shows, they keep getting cancelled. How can he be overrated?

"Keep getting cancelled"?!?!

"Hardly anybody"!?!??!!??

Both statements are fairly accurate... Angel was cancelled, Firefly was cancelled, Dollhouse I don't see lasting next seasons, and according to commentaries they even thought about putting a "to be cancelled" banner at the end of Epitaph One.

Here in the UK Firefly got less than 1m views on a regular basis, and Dollhouse less than 300,000 for most of it's run I believe.

Quite, and even in the states Dollhouse is averaging about the same no of viewers on a major network as Buffy did at it's lowest ebb on the WB. It's a miracle it came back at all.

By network TV standards all of Whedon's shows are very low rated. And lets's not even get into the BO performance of Serenity

 

[Bob The Skutter]

"Keep getting cancelled"?!?!

"Hardly anybody"!?!??!!??

Both statements are fairly accurate... Angel was cancelled, Firefly was cancelled, Dollhouse I don't see lasting next seasons, and according to commentaries they even thought about putting a "to be cancelled" banner at the end of Epitaph One.

Here in the UK Firefly got less than 1m views on a regular basis, and Dollhouse less than 300,000 for most of it's run I believe.

Quite, and even in the states Dollhouse is averaging about the same no of viewers on a major network as Buffy did at it's lowest ebb on the WB. It's a miracle it came back at all.

By network TV standards all of Whedon's shows are very low rated. And lets's not even get into the BO performance of Serenity

Stupid thing is by UK standards of the time Serenity did quite well for the time of year etc. But of course UK standards and time of year give you about $5m if I remember rightly. Which is a drop in the ocean as far as US BO expectations go.

And I say as a fan, if it wasn't for Joss' name being attached to Dollhouse I'm not sure I would have given it the 6 weeks it took me to really take an interest in it. Even now I want to know where it's going, but I wouldn't be too sad if it were cancelled.

 

[3D Master]

What definition of over-rated are we going with here?

I don't think he's overrated by Hollywood. If he was, there wouldn't have been any question about Dollhouse being renewed.

Let's consider his works:

Buffy the Vampire Slayer: A show about a teenage girl who fights vampires and the supernatural. This show lasts for seven seasons, survives a change of network and inspires a fanbase so loyal that there are college courses taught about the show!

Good in the beginning only because of the people around him, most notably David Greenwalt. Went seriously down the drain once he left.

Also, Twilight produced an extremely loyal following, as well as a nearly the same, "vampires are so cuddly and romantic, even though they are brutal killers" book series whose name I can't remember. Of course, the latter had least some merit, while Twilight is a self-insert Mary Sue pile of shit.

Kinda like the latter days of Buffy.

Angel: Spinoff of Buffy, this show lasted five seasons and was an amazing take on the film-noir detective genre. Remember this is a show that gave us demon puppets and made it awesome.

For the first 3 seasons ran by David Greenwalt with much less if any at all input by Joss. Ran by someone else in 4th season, with lots of imput from Greenwalt for that arc from before he left (and people usually don't consider it that good anyway). Then season 5, ran by Joss Whedon: pile of shit.

Firefly: despite poor treatment by the network this show again found a tremendously loyal fanbase and had unprecedented DVD sales that were mostly from word-of-mouth reviews.

It's also boring as all hell, and given the incredibly lacking Serenity figures, it seems most of those buyers agree with me, and wish they hadn't listened.

This was a 13-episode series that became a motion picture. Where in the world does that ever happen?

Hollywood.

Everywhere else, people have brains.

Dr. Horrible's Sing-A-Long Blog: a musical, told from the villain's perspective. Hollywood has never seen anything like it and it managed to make impressive sales in new media markets.

Dollhouse: a show that is basically about prostitution, human trafficking, slavery and rape manages to be funny, entertaining, emotional and enlightening simultaneously once Fox loosens their grip. Courtesy of "Epitaph One" we have an inkling of where the show is going and there is definite excitement building for season 2.

A show that is rather bad, not to mention boring, and has a hero cop that was after the Dollhouse join it, happily keeping the main character enslaved just because he gots the hots for her.

Oh, and the main character out of her own free will because she's a pathetic wimp joined the place, and the much better and stronger individual she was brainwashed into being... then went back to get herself erased as well, despite having the chance to escape as she was outside of the Dollhouse - for no apparent reason whatsoever.

So it seems, the show isn't about human trafficking, slavery and rape, but about how cool it is, especially if you can erase their memories and just turn them into walking vegetables!

So is Joss Whedon overrated? Your mileage may vary but I think he has hustled very hard to get to where he is and I think he has earned every bit of praise that is lavished upon him. Is he perfect? Of course not. But is he overrated? Hell no!

He as far away from not overrated as he can get. He's so overrated an new word should be invented just for how overrated he is. Like say: Whedon-level overrated.

I wasn't too enthusiastic about Dollhouse for most of its run. I'm still fairly lukewarm. But now that I've seen "Epitaph One" and I know just where it's all going.....I would be disappointed if we didn't see it get there.

"Epitaph One" is exactly the sort of thing I like Joss for. He takes a show about a brothel and turns it into a show about the apocalypse in a single episode.

You're kidding me, right?

Great, now it's a show about how great slavery and brainwashing is, and the apocalypse.

It just got even worse.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

oh fuck, who woke him up?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The most impressive thing I've seen from Whedon is the cast of characters he created for Firefly (and although they were also well cast, imagine them on paper, not yet with actors playing them).

The cast spans an interesting range of character types, with interesting potential for interaction even between characters we didn't see interact much in its short run. Even though it's a large cast, Whedon managed to limit the overlap between characters so nobody seems redundant or useless.

I think he's got every human quality represented: naivete, greed, insanity, lust, resentment, faith, professionalism, love, cowardace, family devotion, militarism, snobbery, cynicism, and the impulse to be free.

Hmm, I think Jayne alone is responsible for about half that list.

 

[Ayelbourne]

oh fuck, who woke him up?

Actually, I was wondering when he'd show up.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

^^Actually, I was wondering when he'd show up.

He? Oh I see, misplaced ^.

Anti-cliche-ridden, actually. He's always been about taking the cliches and then doing the opposite, ever since the beginning.

Firefly also showed an admirable ability to upend cliches. Jayne, the ass-kicker, is more of a coward than Simon, the wussy doctor. Book is a man of faith but sinister and mysterious rather than just Yoda-like and wise. The ship's engineer is a young girl. The wife in the resident married pair is the ass-kicking one and hubby just drives the boat. Etc.

 

[Lindley]

You're kidding me, right?

Great, now it's a show about how great slavery and brainwashing is, and the apocalypse.

It just got even worse.

The mind-wipe technology in wireless form is the apocalypse. We've essentially been watching the (unwitting for the most part) "bad guys" all along.

The good thing about revealing that so early is that there will be no excuse for pretending everything's roses in season 2. We know where it ends up; the only thing left to tell is how it gets there. And that could be quite interesting. Especially if the story is simultaneously told in 2009 and 2019 in some way....