I preferred the Prime timeline.

[Spot261]

Yes, because he was dead. That’s my point.

When Roddenberry decanonized TAS, it meant DC had to alter the art of the first couple issues of their second Star Trek series to change M’ress into a new character, M’yra, and Arex into a character called Fouton (iirc.) so, it did indeed have real-world impact on creators of Star Trek tie-ins.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest the phrase "had to" is an overstatement.

They went along with it in order to keep Roddenberry onside, that's not the same thing. I don't think there's any legal power behind "de canonising" anything. TAS still exists, it can still be broadcast, it can still be referred to.

 

[plynch]

The way writers here have explained it is that licensed ancillary works can't contradict what was seen onscreen (canon, as defined by the owners of the intellectual property).

Future writers of DSC or PIC or other canonical Trek may contradict earlier canonical works. All would be canon; it would lack some consistency, but such is collaborative art that extends over 50 years.

 

[JoeZhang]

Future writers of DSC or PIC or other canonical Trek may contradict earlier canonical works.

They can do that *within a show* - the Klingons are members of the Federation in season 1 and 2 of TNG and then... not in Season 3.

 

[Nyotarules]

Saavik's racist? "He's so... Human," doesn't exactly sound that bad by Star Trek's 23rd Century standards. It's definitely better than how Vulcans saw Humans during ENT, over a century earlier. And even if we call her "racist", mild racism is something that doesn't easily go away, no matter how much time passes. It would be nice if it did, but it doesn't.

EDIT: I can't believe I forgot about this. Vulcans still looked down upon Humans even in the 24th Century. "Take Me Out to the Holosuite"! And the Vulcan Captain went to the Academy with Sisko too! The more things change...

Just like real life, 1863 to 2019, 156 years and race relations in the West still need a lot of work

 

[Guy Gardener]

600 million dead in a third world war, millions more Euthanized by Colonel Green, a 10 year long dystopian anitintellecual dark age, followed by an Alien visitation, the rejection of currency based economics and a central Earth Government does a lot for race relations.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

To put it into further perspective: Emotionally, despite her chronological age, she was basically a teenager during VOY. So now, mentally, she'd be 40-ish. So, if at "40" she's still a "teenager", that would be a huge problem.

...albeit, one not singularly uncommon among representatives of Star Trek fandom!

-MMoM

[P.S. -- I love you guys. (No joke.) These perennial canon 'debates' are surely a foundational pillar of civilization as we know it, and key to our survival as a species. (That's a joke!) Picard trailer looks muy cool. I'm genuinely excited about the prospects for Seven/Annika, as I've always found her a great character. Kudos to Jeri's performance and the editor's selection of that bit for the tease, because even without knowing anything else, it instantly lets you know there's been an 'evolution' there. I hope she gets more than a cameo, but even if that's all it is, a very nice gesture toward VGR. I'm avoiding spoilers and speculation and other superfluities for this one, at least until it gets much closer to release. Be safe and well, all.]

 

[Lord Garth]

...albeit, one not singularly uncommon among representatives of Star Trek fandom!

-MMoM

[P.S. -- I love you guys. (No joke.) These perennial canon 'debates' are surely a foundational pillar of civilization as we know it, and key to our survival as a species. (That's a joke!) Picard trailer looks muy cool. I'm genuinely excited about the prospects for Seven/Annika, as I've always found her a great character. Kudos to Jeri's performance and the editor's selection of that bit for the tease, because even without knowing anything else, it instantly lets you know there's been an 'evolution' there. I hope she gets more than a cameo, but even if that's all it is, a very nice gesture toward VGR. I'm avoiding spoilers and speculation and other superfluities for this one, at least until it gets much closer to release. Be safe and well, all.]

You have no idea how perfect the timing of your post would've been if it were just a few hours earlier. My 40th Birthday was on Monday.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

You have no idea how perfect the timing of your post would've been if it were just a few hours earlier. My 40th Birthday was on Monday.

Well, ahem, you see...

"THIS TIME SYSTEM ADJUSTS FOR SHIFTS IN RELATIVE TIME WHICH OCCUR DUE TO THE VESSEL'S SPEED AND SPACE WARP CAPABILITY. IT HAS LITTLE RELATIONSHIP TO EARTH'S TIME AS WE KNOW IT. ONE HOUR ABOARD THE U.S.S. ENTERPRISE AT DIFFERENT TIMES MAY EQUAL AS LITTLE AS THREE EARTH HOURS. THE STAR DATES SPECIFIED IN THE LOG ENTRY MUST BE COMPUTED AGAINST THE SPEED OF THE VESSEL, THE SPACE WARP, AND ITS POSITION WITHIN OUR GALAXY, IN ORDER TO GIVE A MEANINGFUL READING."

-Gene Roddenberry, The Making of Star Trek (1968), page 198​

"BUT THAT ISN'T CANNNNNNNNNNON!" (they all repeated as if to reassure themselves of their own fragile sanity)

Happy birthday! You've got a few years on me yet; I just hit TOS-era Kirk's age. Physically, if not emotionally. Well, not really physically, either. But you get the idea. Ah, corporeal matters...may we never come to think of ourselves (nor be thought of by others) as "ugly bags of mostly water"! But "risk is our business, gentlemen" and all that...

-MMoM

 

[Phoenix219]

By that standard, I assume canon also includes Shatner and the Gorn playing the Kelvin game, Shatner dressing up as Kirk for the Emmies, the Frasier spoof of Voyager and the softcore porn video where “Scotty” beams off a woman’s clothes.

The episode part of the TNG porn is actually a pretty great fan film episode!

 

[Phoenix219]

Everyone looks wrong because even though the same families were pushed into boning each other and using the same names, but the wrong sperms were hitting the wrong eggs, creating the wrong birthdays and the people had the wrong faces.

Kirk was born on the Kelvin sure, but middle age Kelvin Kirk still had to time travel a little, which would have jiggled time previous to his birth just enough to skew everything.

I'm still convinced that if the Kelvin cast time traveled back to the 30s, 60s or 80s, they would find Shatner and company in NYC or San Francisco or something. My only question is, what happens after they interfere with each other and have shenanagins? What happens if they left together on the same ship? Or even if everything happens the same, for instance, where does the BoP with the whales disappear to, if the Kelvan crew had come by to watch? Or because they had to find whales too?

 

[Boris Skrbic]

I'm still convinced that if the Kelvin cast time traveled back to the 30s, 60s or 80s, they would find Shatner and company in NYC or San Francisco or something.

No, since booting up a new reality off 2233 would also mean that we don’t know where it would’ve ended up by 2267 or 2286 or other former origin points for time travel, which fits creatively with the overall need for the KT to often include events from the PT… but with a twist.

So while it’s likely that Pine’s Kirk and Co. would meet themselves in those years, everyone would still be recast, “faster, more intense” (you don’t want to slow down JJ’s film!), and probably with origin points somewhat earlier, in the 2260s or 2270s, which would be revealed in epilogues (of the films, the IDW comics or whatever).

My only question is, what happens after they interfere with each other and have shenanagins? What happens if they left together on the same ship?

Nothing special, they’d just go to whatever Kelvin year either of them came from.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

My only question is, what happens after they interfere with each other and have shenanagins?

Farnsworth: Oooo...A lesson in not changing history from Mr. "I'm-my-own-grandpa"

 

[Crewman6]

The episode part of the TNG porn is actually a pretty great fan film episode!

It was clearly made by huge fans of the series, as it takes the story seriously and takes a pretty deep dive into the lore.

 

[Phoenix219]

It was clearly made by huge fans of the series, as it takes the story seriously and takes a pretty deep dive into the lore.

Agreed. I think the Picard actor was hired for his looks and acting ability, and he had a porn stand-in. That seems counter productive if the entire point is the porn. LMAO.

 

[Crewman6]

Agreed. I think the Picard actor was hired for his looks and acting ability, and he had a porn stand-in. That seems counter productive if the entire point is the porn. LMAO.

From what I remember reading, he was hired for his strong resemblance to Patrick Stewart. Apparently, he was a fixture at conventions, dressing up like JLP, taking pics with folks. They did use a stand-in for his one sex scene.

Unfortunately, I actually thought he was the weakest actor in the bunch! Many porn stars are competent thespians. This guy was an amateur.

 

[Guy Gardener]

No, since booting up a new reality off 2233 would also mean that we don’t know where it would’ve ended up by 2267 or 2286 or other former origin points for time travel, which fits creatively with the overall need for the KT to often include events from the PT… but with a twist.

So while it’s likely that Pine’s Kirk and Co. would meet themselves in those years, everyone would still be recast, “faster, more intense” (you don’t want to slow down JJ’s film!), and probably with origin points somewhat earlier, in the 2260s or 2270s, which would be revealed in epilogues (of the films, the IDW comics or whatever).



Nothing special, they’d just go to whatever Kelvin year either of them came from.

Either you have an anchor, that takes you back to the future you came from, you arrive at a random branch of the time line parallel to where you want to be, or, and this is what I think it happens, you diverge at every divergent point in the timelines, so that an infinite number of yous arrive in all possible futures.

 

[Sci]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest the phrase "had to" is an overstatement.

They went along with it in order to keep Roddenberry onside, that's not the same thing. I don't think there's any legal power behind "de canonising" anything.

There's no legal meaning to the idea of "de-canonizing," but there are legal issues at play.

Simply put, it depends on the licensing agreement between the licensee and the owner of the intellectual property. If the I.P. owner puts into the contract that a licensee cannot publish a derivative work that contains any element the I.P. owner objects to, but then tries to do just that, then they have violated the terms of the contract and are subject to whatever legal penalties that contract subjects them to -- or to a lawsuit, if the contract doesn't contain penalties.

So, for instance, yeah, if Paramount Pictures in 1980-something objected to including M'Ress in a Star Trek comic book published by DC Comics, then DC Comics did indeed have a legal obligation to remove M'Ress in order to conform to the terms of the licensing agreement signed between DC and Paramount.

Anyway, Star Trek: Discovery, Star Trek: Picard, Star Trek (2009), Star Trek Into Darkness, and Star Trek Beyond are all canonical, because the owners of the intellectual property in question (CBS Corporation) says so, and "canonical" is only a meaningful term insofar as it refers to CBS's decisions about what parts of the intellectual property are those that derivative works must remain consistent with when they're published by licensees.

 

[Spot261]

There's no legal meaning to the idea of "de-canonizing," but there are legal issues at play.

Simply put, it depends on the licensing agreement between the licensee and the owner of the intellectual property. If the I.P. owner puts into the contract that a licensee cannot publish a derivative work that contains any element the I.P. owner objects to, but then tries to do just that, then they have violated the terms of the contract and are subject to whatever legal penalties that contract subjects them to -- or to a lawsuit, if the contract doesn't contain penalties.

So, for instance, yeah, if Paramount Pictures in 1980-something objected to including M'Ress in a Star Trek comic book published by DC Comics, then DC Comics did indeed have a legal obligation to remove M'Ress in order to conform to the terms of the licensing agreement signed between DC and Paramount.

Anyway, Star Trek: Discovery, Star Trek: Picard, Star Trek (2009), Star Trek Into Darkness, and Star Trek Beyond are all canonical, because the owners of the intellectual property in question (CBS Corporation) says so, and "canonical" is only a meaningful term insofar as it refers to CBS's decisions about what parts of the intellectual property are those that derivative works must remain consistent with when they're published by licensees.

I'll take your word for it that Roddenberry "de canonising" TAS would have legally required alterations to existing works, not sure how that would work in practise mind you. Would vendors be required to pull them off the shelves? Would they have to be re written to exclude said characters? Did TAS have to stop being aired?

"Canon" is, as you say, merely that which is part of the commercial package. Any other use of the term is a misuse and those misuses are indeed commonplace amongst the fandom.

 

[fireproof78]

"Canon" is, as you say, merely that which is part of the commercial package. Any other use of the term is a misuse and those misuses are indeed commonplace amongst the fandom.

"Canon" too commonly means "stuff I like" while "noncanon" means "stuff I don't like."

And, yes, I'm guilty of this.

 

[Phoenix219]

"Canon" too commonly means "stuff I like" while "noncanon" means "stuff I don't like."

And, yes, I'm guilty of this.

Yup, me too. I consider STC canon to TOS, and I consider the entire 24th century to no longer exist, with whatever DSC is doing right now rewriting (via FC and ENT) the existing 23rd century.