"Here's one thing you can be sure of, mister: leave any bigotry in your quarters. There's no room for it on the bridge. Do I make myself clear?" - Captain James T. Kirk, " Balance of Terror"
I preferred the Prime timeline.
- Thread starter Trekkie27
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"Here's one thing you can be sure of, mister: leave any bigotry in your quarters. There's no room for it on the bridge. Do I make myself clear?" - Captain James T. Kirk, " Balance of Terror"
Following up myself because I haven't yet made enough posts to allow me to edit: I do have a problem with "racist Kirk" as portrayed in that film, in part for the reason King Daniel Begins gives with regard to the end of STV: TFF, but also because, to me, it seems to run counter to Kirk's character as portrayed up to that point.
It seems that with age, and bitterness over the death of a son he hardly knew roughly eight years previously, Kirk has forgotten the lesson he learned at the end of "Arena" and the lesson he tried to impart to the Eminians in "A Taste of Armageddon" in the "I will not kill . . . TODAY!" speech.
That said, I think that there is a valid character-based story to be told in showing how Kirk got to that point of advocating genocide for the sake of vengeance after the Starfleet briefing early in the film, but the film isn't interested in telling that story , and the audience probably wouldn't be interested in seeing it.
While Stiles' open hostility towards Spock due to the Romulans' similarity to Vulcan puts Stiles in conflict with audience sympathies and Jim Kirk, making Kirk and the command crew borderline complicit with the racism of Burke and Samno complicates our own relationships with our protagonists.
While I think Meyer would argue that this complication makes the character dynamics more realistic and more mature than Roddenberry's Next Gen-era utopianism, it "feels" off with regard to these characters to me, based on previous portrayals.
It seems that with age, and bitterness over the death of a son he hardly knew roughly eight years previously, Kirk has forgotten the lesson he learned at the end of "Arena" and the lesson he tried to impart to the Eminians in "A Taste of Armageddon" in the "I will not kill . . . TODAY!" speech.
That said, I think that there is a valid character-based story to be told in showing how Kirk got to that point of advocating genocide for the sake of vengeance after the Starfleet briefing early in the film, but the film isn't interested in telling that story , and the audience probably wouldn't be interested in seeing it.
While Stiles' open hostility towards Spock due to the Romulans' similarity to Vulcan puts Stiles in conflict with audience sympathies and Jim Kirk, making Kirk and the command crew borderline complicit with the racism of Burke and Samno complicates our own relationships with our protagonists.
While I think Meyer would argue that this complication makes the character dynamics more realistic and more mature than Roddenberry's Next Gen-era utopianism, it "feels" off with regard to these characters to me, based on previous portrayals.
I think Kirk had been worn down by so many conflicts with the Klingons over the years. Much like Picard won't be the same in PIC as he was in TNG, Kirk wasn't the same in TUC as he was in TOS. Ensuing decades have simply put both characters in different places.
And when you deal with the death of family members, there are different points where it will hit you unexpectedly. And you never know when it will happen until it does. I, unfortunately, know this from personal experience. William Shatner also had trouble with Kirk's line, "Let them die!" and wanted to act it out as if the words just exploded out of his mouth in frustration. William Shatner acted out mannerisms to imply he didn't mean what he just said, but then Nick Meyer edited them out. He got the performance he wanted out of William Shatner and that was that. He cut out whatever he felt he didn't need in the film, because it was only really there in the first place to get William Shatner where he needed to be to act out the line.
As far as the end of TFF, I think there's a difference between drinking with the enemy and TUC where the enemy becomes your friend. Kirk could handle one, but not so much the other.
And when you deal with the death of family members, there are different points where it will hit you unexpectedly. And you never know when it will happen until it does. I, unfortunately, know this from personal experience. William Shatner also had trouble with Kirk's line, "Let them die!" and wanted to act it out as if the words just exploded out of his mouth in frustration. William Shatner acted out mannerisms to imply he didn't mean what he just said, but then Nick Meyer edited them out. He got the performance he wanted out of William Shatner and that was that. He cut out whatever he felt he didn't need in the film, because it was only really there in the first place to get William Shatner where he needed to be to act out the line.
As far as the end of TFF, I think there's a difference between drinking with the enemy and TUC where the enemy becomes your friend. Kirk could handle one, but not so much the other.
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America needed help redefining their relationship with Russia. Art imitates life.
At the time, so long ago, I remember thinking how weak David was because he died before he got around to sleeping with Savvik.
Later I realised that Saavik thought that he was an asshole, and that it was good that David died young and unfulfilled rather than old and unfulfilled.
Still later I realised that David was standing there like a cuck, watching Spock and Savvik bang every 7 hours. So maybe he disrespectfully didn't want Spock's sloppy seconds, or that he respectfully acknowledged that she was very tired, and probably didn't want to see another stupid penis for another 7 years.
Still, still later when I found out that Merrit Butrick was probably gay, therefore David might be gay, I concluded that that's why he failed minimum romantic achievement for an 80s male lead. David was chasing a different game with more stubble... David, even if he was straight, would have been a bit of a prick not to offer Saavik relief from the 6 to 10 times she had to bring young Spock to orgasm inside of the next 20 hours. Although psychic imprinting might mean that he was only interested in Savvik and that's why 7 years after Genesis, Spock craved to return to the woman who should already be his wife. Young Picard was at Spock's wedding.
Still, still, still later I started wondering how old David was? Was he born after the historic 5 year mission? Was David 13 years old, with a thyroid condition? If he was a child, maybe that's why he didn't punch above his weight with a 31 year old Kirsty Alley.
Finally right now I'm wondering how old was cadet Savvik? So young that at 18 earth years old, she was a decade away from becoming sexually active/mature with her betrothed back on Vulkcan, or was she almost 60 years old, with zero interest in a human child.
Poor David.
At the time, so long ago, I remember thinking how weak David was because he died before he got around to sleeping with Savvik.
Later I realised that Saavik thought that he was an asshole, and that it was good that David died young and unfulfilled rather than old and unfulfilled.
Still later I realised that David was standing there like a cuck, watching Spock and Savvik bang every 7 hours. So maybe he disrespectfully didn't want Spock's sloppy seconds, or that he respectfully acknowledged that she was very tired, and probably didn't want to see another stupid penis for another 7 years.
Still, still later when I found out that Merrit Butrick was probably gay, therefore David might be gay, I concluded that that's why he failed minimum romantic achievement for an 80s male lead. David was chasing a different game with more stubble... David, even if he was straight, would have been a bit of a prick not to offer Saavik relief from the 6 to 10 times she had to bring young Spock to orgasm inside of the next 20 hours. Although psychic imprinting might mean that he was only interested in Savvik and that's why 7 years after Genesis, Spock craved to return to the woman who should already be his wife. Young Picard was at Spock's wedding.
Still, still, still later I started wondering how old David was? Was he born after the historic 5 year mission? Was David 13 years old, with a thyroid condition? If he was a child, maybe that's why he didn't punch above his weight with a 31 year old Kirsty Alley.
Finally right now I'm wondering how old was cadet Savvik? So young that at 18 earth years old, she was a decade away from becoming sexually active/mature with her betrothed back on Vulkcan, or was she almost 60 years old, with zero interest in a human child.
Poor David.
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That didn't stop them though, there are several references to the animated series throughout DS9.
So much to unpack here, but I'll zero in on just the boring stuff.
The Okuda Chronology has David being roughly the same age Merrit Butrick was. They placed David's birth at 2261. So he would've been four-to-nine years old during the five-year mission. And roughly 11 or 12 during TMP. When David talks about, "Remember that overgrown boy scout you used to hang around with?" Kirk might have tried to be part of David's life again via Carol between TOS and TMP.
Saavik, I think, was a graduate student at the Academy. She was already a Lieutenant and taking the Kobyashi Maru test. So I think she was in her early-20s.
Thermians aren't nearly as literal and pedantic about the historical records.
I'm sure the nice and accurate prophecies of Agnes Nutter cover any discrepancies.
Newton Pulsifer disagrees.
It's all ineffable. You'll make yourself crazy imagining you understand it.
Probably best to just go back to lurking, just like the Springsteen song.
I know, but I was talking about Roddenberry's intent, which was simply wrong.
So much to unpack here, but I'll zero in on just the boring stuff.
The Okuda Chronology has David being roughly the same age Merrit Butrick was. They placed David's birth at 2261. So he would've been four-to-nine years old during the five-year mission. And roughly 11 or 12 during TMP. When David talks about, "Remember that overgrown boy scout you used to hang around with?" Kirk might have tried to be part of David's life again via Carol between TOS and TMP.
Saavik, I think, was a graduate student at the Academy. She was already a Lieutenant and taking the Kobyashi Maru test. So I think she was in her early-20s.
We saw the cadet taking the kubayashi exam. If she's a Lieutenant weeks later in III... I'd almost believe that everyone that survived the training cruise from Hell, got a field commission of Lieutenant, without graduating the Academy.
She wears a lieutenant’s pip and is addressed as lieutenant by Spock in TWOK before the training cruise from hell begins.
Yes, because he was dead. That’s my point.
When Roddenberry decanonized TAS, it meant DC had to alter the art of the first couple issues of their second Star Trek series to change M’ress into a new character, M’yra, and Arex into a character called Fouton (iirc.) so, it did indeed have real-world impact on creators of Star Trek tie-ins.
In the YouTube where she takes the ship out of Space Dock, Savvik is wearing a red polo sweater under the jacket, and the strap latch on the shoulder is also red.
Cadet with a temporary rank of lieutenant?
In the third movie, Robin is in a white polo.
Or she's a fifth year* cadet attending command school and holds the rank of lieutenant.
*Fifth year established in "Bread and Circuses"
I always interpreted as a last year cadet who would be moved into the ranks as a lieutenant at graduation.
She was still very racist for someone who had spent four or 5 years on Earth.
Maybe she's done her learning on Vulcan, the science academy and the expeditionary force, and then for "reasons" (Maybe her parentage?) she transfered to Starfleet. Since before T'Pol the ranks between services have been interchangeable.
Maybe she's done her learning on Vulcan, the science academy and the expeditionary force, and then for "reasons" (Maybe her parentage?) she transfered to Starfleet. Since before T'Pol the ranks between services have been interchangeable.
Saavik's racist? "He's so... Human," doesn't exactly sound that bad by Star Trek's 23rd Century standards. It's definitely better than how Vulcans saw Humans during ENT, over a century earlier. And even if we call her "racist", mild racism is something that doesn't easily go away, no matter how much time passes. It would be nice if it did, but it doesn't.
EDIT: I can't believe I forgot about this. Vulcans still looked down upon Humans even in the 24th Century. "Take Me Out to the Holosuite"! And the Vulcan Captain went to the Academy with Sisko too! The more things change...
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