I finished Buffy!
- Thread starter RoJoHen
- Start date
Close enough
3D Master
Rear Admiral
^ I know, they're excellent. The ending to that one is great
I really don't want to read another Spike argument (although I do have that special "not this shit again picture on standby), just to say that although Spike is a killer, he's hardly alone in the Buffyverse whitehats.
Buffy, Angel, Giles, Gunn, Wesley, Lorne, Faith, and Andrew have all killed humans and all had souls when they did. That's just off the top of my head.
You could add Willow, Anya and Oz too, but they were witched/demoned/wolfed out when they did though
Spike wasn't, and isn't a white hat, he isn't even people. He's a soulless, pure evil, demon-animated corpse.
And killing humans isn't a problem, it's the reason WHY you do it that makes it a problem. And whether or not you are evil and remain so, the question comes: have they redeemed themselves or not. Of course, this is only possible if you have a soul. Without a soul, there's not chance for redemption, you have no desire for it anyway; you're just a killing machine.
Gah, we tried watching more Angel tonight, but my friend started to fall asleep a few episodes in! I still have 2 episodes left in Season 4!
Right now I'm really pissed off at Skip. More pissed off than I've been at a character in a while. And I can't stop thinking about how far back Cordelia's life has been manipulated to lead to this point. Did it start when Skip offered her the choice to give up her powers (when she became half-demon)? Does it go as far back as Season 1? Was Doyle a part of it?
My head is spinning.
Right now I'm really pissed off at Skip. More pissed off than I've been at a character in a while. And I can't stop thinking about how far back Cordelia's life has been manipulated to lead to this point. Did it start when Skip offered her the choice to give up her powers (when she became half-demon)? Does it go as far back as Season 1? Was Doyle a part of it?
My head is spinning.
Mmmm, some of the revaltions in "Inside Out" are a little bit hard to swallow, and it definitely seems they weren't planned beforehand.
But yes the implication is Skip was just bullshitting in "Birthday" and the plan was to make Cordy part demon so she could withstand the pregnancy, and have her ascend at the end of Season 3 in "Tomorrow" sho Jasmine would be able to inhabit her.
There's also the thing of Connor too being manipulated. His birth orchastrated after Angel succeeds in "The Trial" by Jasmine, so the son of two vampires could be her "father"
Although that makes NO SENSE whatsoever, as Connor was a icky bitty baby, and only became an adult very quickly to shag Cordelia thanks to Holtz & Sahjhans intervention.
Unless Jasmine knew that was gonna happen, which would be pretty amazing, or that Sahjhan was also working for Jasmine, which also seems unlikely
I've said before, I love Season 4, but analyse the arc plot and its total bollocks
Best just not think about it
But yes the implication is Skip was just bullshitting in "Birthday" and the plan was to make Cordy part demon so she could withstand the pregnancy, and have her ascend at the end of Season 3 in "Tomorrow" sho Jasmine would be able to inhabit her.
There's also the thing of Connor too being manipulated. His birth orchastrated after Angel succeeds in "The Trial" by Jasmine, so the son of two vampires could be her "father"
Although that makes NO SENSE whatsoever, as Connor was a icky bitty baby, and only became an adult very quickly to shag Cordelia thanks to Holtz & Sahjhans intervention.
Unless Jasmine knew that was gonna happen, which would be pretty amazing, or that Sahjhan was also working for Jasmine, which also seems unlikely
I've said before, I love Season 4, but analyse the arc plot and its total bollocks
Best just not think about it
^I suppose it's possible that Jasmine planned for Conner and Cordelia to be her parents, but maybe she didn't plan for it to happen as soon as it did. Conner's return from Kortoth (sp?) as an adult allowed her to manipulate them sooner than she'd planned.
Or maybe Cordelia was never meant to be a part of the plan (maybe Skip really WAS a good guy in the beginning), and she simply saw Cordelia's demonic tranformation and took advantage of it. Skip may have been good (or at least nice), but he was still a demon and could have been turned.
Or maybe Cordelia was never meant to be a part of the plan (maybe Skip really WAS a good guy in the beginning), and she simply saw Cordelia's demonic tranformation and took advantage of it. Skip may have been good (or at least nice), but he was still a demon and could have been turned.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Actually, it seems that Sajhjan was manipulated into sending Connor to the Kortoth to get Connor to teen status pretty much overnight.
Remember the Burger telling Wesley that the Father will kill the son is a real, true, unchangeable prophecy? Well, Sajhjan says that he went back in time and changed the prophecy "the son will kill Sajhjan" into "the father will kill the son."
This doesn't make any sense. Godly Burger should have known this and told Wesley it's a fake changed by a time traveling demon.
The only way the Godly Burger could be right, if someone had ALREADY gone back in time, changed the prophecy to "the son will kill Sajhjan", in order to manipulate Sajhjan in doing everything he did, including unwittingly changing the prophecy back into the REAL prophecy.
The only thing is, I can't see Jasmine being able to do that; she didn't seem that powerful, in fact she seemed mostly powerless given all that she had to do, just to hop into our dimension; while all we would have to do to go dimension traveling is recite a spell and voila.
Of course, if you ask me, who WOULD have the power and far reaching influence to do that would be the First Evil.
Remember the Burger telling Wesley that the Father will kill the son is a real, true, unchangeable prophecy? Well, Sajhjan says that he went back in time and changed the prophecy "the son will kill Sajhjan" into "the father will kill the son."
This doesn't make any sense. Godly Burger should have known this and told Wesley it's a fake changed by a time traveling demon.
The only way the Godly Burger could be right, if someone had ALREADY gone back in time, changed the prophecy to "the son will kill Sajhjan", in order to manipulate Sajhjan in doing everything he did, including unwittingly changing the prophecy back into the REAL prophecy.
The only thing is, I can't see Jasmine being able to do that; she didn't seem that powerful, in fact she seemed mostly powerless given all that she had to do, just to hop into our dimension; while all we would have to do to go dimension traveling is recite a spell and voila.
Of course, if you ask me, who WOULD have the power and far reaching influence to do that would be the First Evil.
Whether or not it's true, I have basically come to the conclusion that Jasmine and The First were dating, so all the stuff in Buffy Season 7 and Angel Season 4 really are part of the same thing.
As said before, it did seem like the plots would converge at the time.
Such as both seasons starting out with a "big evil is coming" vibe, on Buffy with "From beneath you it devours" and Angel with what Lorne read from Cordelia
And then the eternal darkness in LA, which would have soon spread out, would have been perfick for the ubervamps.
But alas...
Such as both seasons starting out with a "big evil is coming" vibe, on Buffy with "From beneath you it devours" and Angel with what Lorne read from Cordelia
And then the eternal darkness in LA, which would have soon spread out, would have been perfick for the ubervamps.
But alas...
If you mean by Angel altering Connor's memories so he no longer remembers his life with Holtz/Angel, he "kills" Connor, then yeah that's what I always thought. Kinda cool
Although near the end of Angel: After The Fall....
Someone does kill Connor for real. But it's not Angel/us...
Maybe they would have converged if the good guys hadn't beaten them first (I assume the good guys win in Angel, still have 2 episodes left).
It just seems rather unlikely that two unrelated Apocalypses would be occurring simultaneously not too far from each other.
Much appreciated.
A bit. Notice how Sunnydale conveniently lost all TV signals shortly before Jasmine began appearing on the air.
The autonomy of the Buffy S7 and ANGEL S4 arcs - which clearly should've been connected - was due to the real-world problem of the two series being broadcast on different networks and distributed by different companies. IIRC, it took Joss some doing to even get the okay to do the minimal amount of crossover that he was able to (Willow's appearance in Orpheus and Angel's appearance in one of the final episodes of S7).
Maybe Jasmine and The First weren't in on it together, but were rather enemies trying to get their Apocalypse to happen before the other!
A bit. Notice how Sunnydale conveniently lost all TV signals shortly before Jasmine began appearing on the air.
Jasmine: "I'm gonna broadcast my image all over the world!"
The First: "Oh yeah? That's gonna be difficult when I turn off all the power!"
Jasmine: "
"
The First: "Hahaha! Mine is an evil laugh! Now die!"Maybe Jasmine and The First weren't in on it together, but were rather enemies trying to get their Apocalypse to happen before the other!
A bit. Notice how Sunnydale conveniently lost all TV signals shortly before Jasmine began appearing on the air.
Jasmine: "I'm gonna broadcast my image all over the world!"
The First: "Oh yeah? That's gonna be difficult when I turn off all the power!"
Jasmine: "
Wait, wrong Whedon show.
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