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I finished Buffy!

But the First isn't that kind of villain. Kind of the whole point of the character is that it can't do anything itself - its only power is in persuading other people to do things on its behalf. So if you don't allow it to persuade you, it can't do anything. That is Buffy's victory against it - that she took matters into her own hands and refused to play the First's game.

Although that's actually debatable. Some of us believe that Buffy played right into The First's game by killing off the slayer line. Sure, The First will have to wait about 80-100 years for that, but he's patient. The century wait also plays into Fray.

Is the Slayer line now dead? In the show it is stated that "every single girl who can be a slayer, will be a slayer" which probably includes girls conceived after the events of the episode.

Well it was never stated to be dead, but in Fray a slayer hadn't been called in centuries. Willow used the Axe from Fray to cast her spell, so I believe they're connected.

The First had many chances to kill Buffy (such as in the school with Caleb), but left her alive. The First even gave Buffy the idea to empower the slayers, and given Buffy's less than average intellect it's not so hard to believe that The First could have been manipulating her. Poor writing or foreshadowing for Fray? Probably the former, but I choose to believe the latter.
 
id like Dark Willow a lot, but she was only there in the very end of the season. If the whole season had been like that, I would have liked it a lot better. Sadly, a few episodes at the end of the season can't salvage the rest for me.

From the episode where Tara died to the season finale is one of the most awesome string of episodes IMO. It was darkest moment of the entire series. That's what usually stands out when I do re-runs, anticipation of the awesome Dark Willow, it's worth the trek through the first 2/3's of season 6 :)
 
Well it was never stated to be dead, but in Fray a slayer hadn't been called in centuries. Willow used the Axe from Fray to cast her spell, so I believe they're connected.

The First had many chances to kill Buffy (such as in the school with Caleb), but left her alive. The First even gave Buffy the idea to empower the slayers, and given Buffy's less than average intellect it's not so hard to believe that The First could have been manipulating her. Poor writing or foreshadowing for Fray? Probably the former, but I choose to believe the latter.
Note that Fray was written in 2001, 2 years before Buffy ended. Then Whedon didn't have the ending with the Slayer-line-severly-changed in his head. That's one of the main points for Season 8 to accomplish, to explain why there's only one Slayer left in the future, and how the "end of magic" thing explained in Fray happened. Which is heavily referenced in the recent crossover issues where Buffy is transported to Fray's time and is shocked to see how the future has turned out.
 
As some may be aware, my best friend has been making me watch Buffy and Angel for the last year or so. Well, on Tuesday, we finally finished the 7th season of Buffy (we're slightly out of order, so I haven't finished Angel Season 4 yet, so let's not talk about that here).

I loved it. I think Season 7 is the best I've seen since Season 3, probably due to the nature of the Big Bad. The First Evil just seemed a lot more epic than, um...Warren...or Adam...:rolleyes: I actually felt like the world was in danger.

Eh?

The talks useless shit without ever hurting anyone or showing any type of power, not even using the indirect ones he has when he can? This guy was either pathetic beyond reason, or he secretly won, tricking Buffy in doing exactly what he wanted her to.

Either way, horrible.

You want to watch the First Evil done right though; watch the Archangel-Avatar-Armageddon trilogy of Highlander the Series.

On S7: I will probably never understand how people can rate Season 7 so highly; yes, the season had a lot of great concepts, but the execution of said concepts really leaves something to be desired... and no, I'm not the only person who holds this opinion. But I digress.

It's definitely not without its flaws, but I just really liked how they seemed to use the season to get back to "basics" of Buffy. There's more focus on the slayer legacy, the solitude that goes along with it.

Solitude!? Legacy!? That's not the basics of Buffy! Haven't you watched the first four seasons? The basics of Buffy is that she is NOT alone, that SHE has friends, and that by DESTROYING the lone Slayer legacy through that, BUFFY becomes the best, the longest running and most successful Slayer ever. S7 destroyed the Buffy basics and told us; you know, those first 4 seasons, forget them, they never happened, Buffy's alone after all.

They bring back the focus on the Hellmouth, and I loved the return of the high school setting. Buffy's job made a lot more sense than the damn burger joint.

What Hellmouth!? There was no Hellmouth in S7. There was a seal; and since they wrote themselves into a corner, decided to call it the Hellmouth in the last few episodes, but the Hellmouth wasn't around.
 
Am I the only one here who really really hated Spike Season 4 onwards? It makes absolutely no sense to me that they would leave him alive. he tried to kill them on numerous occasions pre-chip. After the chip, he tried to manipulate them into getting killed by Adam, that should warrant a staking there. The fact that nothing happened to him as a result actually made the rest of the characters seem weak. The very minute he thinks the chip has stopped working in season 6, he tries to kill an innocent woman. The whole Spike loves Buffy thing was stupid in season 5 and then got EXTREMELY sick and twisted in Season 6, especially the rape. I love James Marsters as an actor but I wish they could have cast him as somebody who wasnt originally intended to get killed mid Season 2. They just kinda shoehorned him in because he was popular with fans but, some admittedly great one liners aside, what was he there for?

P.S. I know people love Spike, please dont kill me.
 
Well it was never stated to be dead, but in Fray a slayer hadn't been called in centuries. Willow used the Axe from Fray to cast her spell, so I believe they're connected.

The First had many chances to kill Buffy (such as in the school with Caleb), but left her alive. The First even gave Buffy the idea to empower the slayers, and given Buffy's less than average intellect it's not so hard to believe that The First could have been manipulating her. Poor writing or foreshadowing for Fray? Probably the former, but I choose to believe the latter.
Note that Fray was written in 2001, 2 years before Buffy ended. Then Whedon didn't have the ending with the Slayer-line-severly-changed in his head. That's one of the main points for Season 8 to accomplish, to explain why there's only one Slayer left in the future, and how the "end of magic" thing explained in Fray happened. Which is heavily referenced in the recent crossover issues where Buffy is transported to Fray's time and is shocked to see how the future has turned out.

Unless Whedon created Fray without knowing what caused the "end of magic" and was going to wait for the right moment to introduce it. Enter season seven.

I read a few issues of the comic and I couldn't stand it, so I don't know what's going on in season eight. If Fray is playing a huge part in season eight Whedon will probably either debunk or prove my theory soon enough.
 
As some may be aware, my best friend has been making me watch Buffy and Angel for the last year or so. Well, on Tuesday, we finally finished the 7th season of Buffy (we're slightly out of order, so I haven't finished Angel Season 4 yet, so let's not talk about that here).

I loved it. I think Season 7 is the best I've seen since Season 3, probably due to the nature of the Big Bad. The First Evil just seemed a lot more epic than, um...Warren...or Adam...:rolleyes: I actually felt like the world was in danger.

Eh?

The talks useless shit without ever hurting anyone or showing any type of power, not even using the indirect ones he has when he can? This guy was either pathetic beyond reason, or he secretly won, tricking Buffy in doing exactly what he wanted her to.

Either way, horrible.

You want to watch the First Evil done right though; watch the Archangel-Avatar-Armageddon trilogy of Highlander the Series.

Okay, the First Evil itself didn't do a whole lot, but the season had a generally more epic feel than the couple seasons that preceeded it.

It's definitely not without its flaws, but I just really liked how they seemed to use the season to get back to "basics" of Buffy. There's more focus on the slayer legacy, the solitude that goes along with it.

Solitude!? Legacy!? That's not the basics of Buffy! Haven't you watched the first four seasons? The basics of Buffy is that she is NOT alone, that SHE has friends, and that by DESTROYING the lone Slayer legacy through that, BUFFY becomes the best, the longest running and most successful Slayer ever. S7 destroyed the Buffy basics and told us; you know, those first 4 seasons, forget them, they never happened, Buffy's alone after all.
Buffy survived the first few seasons because she wasn't alone. That's true. But one of the points that I think was important in Season 7 was that the slayer is intended to be alone. And it DOES get to the basics of Buffy because, in the end, she couldn't win by herself. It did take the help of her friends to actually win in the end.

The slayer line was a solitary one. It was only a matter of time before it became a serious issue for Buffy.

They bring back the focus on the Hellmouth, and I loved the return of the high school setting. Buffy's job made a lot more sense than the damn burger joint.
What Hellmouth!? There was no Hellmouth in S7. There was a seal; and since they wrote themselves into a corner, decided to call it the Hellmouth in the last few episodes, but the Hellmouth wasn't around.
Okay, fair enough, but the "idea" of the Hellmouth was definitely an influence.

Obviously, you have some issues with Season 7. I happened to enjoy it more than the two seasons before it.
 
As some may be aware, my best friend has been making me watch Buffy and Angel for the last year or so. Well, on Tuesday, we finally finished the 7th season of Buffy (we're slightly out of order, so I haven't finished Angel Season 4 yet, so let's not talk about that here).

I loved it. I think Season 7 is the best I've seen since Season 3, probably due to the nature of the Big Bad. The First Evil just seemed a lot more epic than, um...Warren...or Adam...:rolleyes: I actually felt like the world was in danger.

Eh?

The talks useless shit without ever hurting anyone or showing any type of power, not even using the indirect ones he has when he can? This guy was either pathetic beyond reason, or he secretly won, tricking Buffy in doing exactly what he wanted her to.

Either way, horrible.

You want to watch the First Evil done right though; watch the Archangel-Avatar-Armageddon trilogy of Highlander the Series.

Okay, the First Evil itself didn't do a whole lot, but the season had a generally more epic feel than the couple seasons that preceeded it.

If by epic you mean "epic fail" you have a point. S7 is a mess, that makes no bloody internal sense whatsoever, and even less with the previous Buffy seasons.

Buffy survived the first few seasons because she wasn't alone. That's true. But one of the points that I think was important in Season 7 was that the slayer is intended to be alone.
Noo! :( The fact that that is the point in Season 7 is THE PROBLEM! The very First Slayer brought that point up in the Season 4 finale. What did Buffy do? She kicked the shit out of her and then told her that she wasn't alone, and if she didn't like it to go suck it (without actually using those specific words).

Buffy S7 has her whining about being alone; and those poor simpletons who are not Slayers are so far beneath me, they can't really do anything for me, and us Slayers will be alone even if we have "friends".

And it DOES get to the basics of Buffy because, in the end, she couldn't win by herself. It did take the help of her friends to actually win in the end.
The problem being that Buffy is of the mind those "friends" are beneath her, and even with them around her, she's still all alone and in a class above them. It's sickening.

More importantly, it's the complete opposite of what came before, a total reversal of the BtVS themes in the first 4 and somewhat 5 seasons.

The slayer line was a solitary one. It was only a matter of time before it became a serious issue for Buffy.
Buffy is dead and resurrected. And the fact that she is dead and resurrected allowed the FE to do what it wanted to do; to point of not killing her several times over when it had the chance, because her death would end the imbalance that he was capitalizing on.

Hmm, maybe there being only one Slayer is FOR A REASON, and it's what keeps the FE and possibly even many others like it from screwing up the planet!

Which would mean that the one Slayer is a GOOD state, and the FE secretly won and got Buffy to do exactly what it wanted.

They bring back the focus on the Hellmouth, and I loved the return of the high school setting. Buffy's job made a lot more sense than the damn burger joint.
What Hellmouth!? There was no Hellmouth in S7. There was a seal; and since they wrote themselves into a corner, decided to call it the Hellmouth in the last few episodes, but the Hellmouth wasn't around.
Okay, fair enough, but the "idea" of the Hellmouth was definitely an influence.
Not really. It wasn't much an influence at all, it was only pulled back out of the writers asses at the end because they realized; well, dang, Sarah is quitting, she's had it with the bad writing, this is now the last season, gotta have the Hellmouth in the last season, it was what started it after all, so how does the Seal of Danzalthar influence the Hellmouth or vice versa. What does it do, and how are they related?

Well, we still don't know, let's just forget the seal is nothing like the Hellmouth, the whole first part of the season is set up as the seal is something new and mysterious, and just call it the Hellmouth!
 
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See, I love the first five seasons, and there are some good episodes after (Once More With Feeling, for example) but, really...

The show continually improved each season, upping the Big Bads until they reached a god, and then came to the perfect - and inevitable, given the Slayer's duties - ending. Beautiful, perfect, everything.

And then they made two more seasons - big mistake. There are some OK episodes thereafter, but overall, the dynamic is gone, Xander is obviously far older than he's meant to be, and the all-men-are-useless-or-evil thing got really wearing (Xander and Anya, Spike becoming a rapist, etc). And then there's the nerds. I've nothing against nerds as villains, but check out New Police Story (or even Evilspeak) for how it *should* be done.

It all makes stuff like the 40-degree change in direction that bullet would have to make to take out Tara so mild a problem by comparison.
 
Buffy is dead and resurrected. And the fact that she is dead and resurrected allowed the FE to do what it wanted to do; to point of not killing her several times over when it had the chance, because her death would end the imbalance that he was capitalizing on.

Hmm, maybe there being only one Slayer is FOR A REASON, and it's what keeps the FE and possibly even many others like it from screwing up the planet!

Which would mean that the one Slayer is a GOOD state, and the FE secretly won and got Buffy to do exactly what it wanted.
That's actually the clearest and most un-rant-like I've ever heard you describe that, and once you peel away the fury, you actually make an intriguing point.

Of course, it would have just been nice if the creators had actually stated that explicitly instead of making us have to fanwank it.
 
Am I the only one here who really really hated Spike Season 4 onwards? It makes absolutely no sense to me that they would leave him alive. he tried to kill them on numerous occasions pre-chip. After the chip, he tried to manipulate them into getting killed by Adam, that should warrant a staking there. The fact that nothing happened to him as a result actually made the rest of the characters seem weak. The very minute he thinks the chip has stopped working in season 6, he tries to kill an innocent woman. The whole Spike loves Buffy thing was stupid in season 5 and then got EXTREMELY sick and twisted in Season 6, especially the rape. I love James Marsters as an actor but I wish they could have cast him as somebody who wasnt originally intended to get killed mid Season 2. They just kinda shoehorned him in because he was popular with fans but, some admittedly great one liners aside, what was he there for?

P.S. I know people love Spike, please dont kill me.

I think it was simply a matter that, while Spike obviously wasn't innocent, he was harmless and Buffy, being the hero and all, didn't kill harmless people. It may be weak justification, but it is sound.
 
Am I the only one here who really really hated Spike Season 4 onwards? It makes absolutely no sense to me that they would leave him alive. he tried to kill them on numerous occasions pre-chip. After the chip, he tried to manipulate them into getting killed by Adam, that should warrant a staking there. The fact that nothing happened to him as a result actually made the rest of the characters seem weak. The very minute he thinks the chip has stopped working in season 6, he tries to kill an innocent woman. The whole Spike loves Buffy thing was stupid in season 5 and then got EXTREMELY sick and twisted in Season 6, especially the rape. I love James Marsters as an actor but I wish they could have cast him as somebody who wasnt originally intended to get killed mid Season 2. They just kinda shoehorned him in because he was popular with fans but, some admittedly great one liners aside, what was he there for?

The other characters were just as flawed so, honestly, we can't expect them to make perfect decisions.
 
That's actually the clearest and most un-rant-like I've ever heard you describe that, and once you peel away the fury, you actually make an intriguing point.

Of course, it would have just been nice if the creators had actually stated that explicitly instead of making us have to fanwank it.

Actually, 3DMaster's point about the Slayer line and the First's plan IS stated within the show, and by several people, among them Giles and the First itself.
 
Buffy is dead and resurrected. And the fact that she is dead and resurrected allowed the FE to do what it wanted to do; to point of not killing her several times over when it had the chance, because her death would end the imbalance that he was capitalizing on.

Hmm, maybe there being only one Slayer is FOR A REASON, and it's what keeps the FE and possibly even many others like it from screwing up the planet!

Which would mean that the one Slayer is a GOOD state, and the FE secretly won and got Buffy to do exactly what it wanted.
That's actually the clearest and most un-rant-like I've ever heard you describe that, and once you peel away the fury, you actually make an intriguing point.

Of course, it would have just been nice if the creators had actually stated that explicitly instead of making us have to fanwank it.

Uh... fanwank? The Eye stated it pretty explicitly, without saying it literally word for word. Although Anya, Xander and Giles then translate it pretty literally, if I remember the exact words it was: "It's our fault. If we hadn't resurrected Buffy, all this wouldn't be happening."

I think it was simply a matter that, while Spike obviously wasn't innocent, he was harmless and Buffy, being the hero and all, didn't kill harmless people. It may be weak justification, but it is sound.

1. He isn't people.

2. He isn't harmless: would have helped out Faith getting her revenged if he walked into her, joined Adam, attempted to get the chip out and wanted to kill Buffy and co. the moment it was out, let Drusilla kill someone and drank from the victim, kidnapped Buffy and threatened to have Drusilla kill her if she didn't admit she loved him, had the Buffy-bot built, S6 in its entirety, and then S7 where he hasn't got a shred better even with a soul.

He should have been dust the moment he was had no more information to share, he should have been dust the moment he helped Adam and they knew he was helping them, but if they gave him that one pass; the stipulation would be, "Cause any harm again, or attempt to do so, your dust." Which meant, that at the absolute latest, when he kidnapped an Initiative guy to have his chip surgically removed, he should have been absolutely dust.

The rest of Buffy is just down hill ever since that didn't happen.
 
^ I know, they're excellent. The ending to that one is great :lol:


I really don't want to read another Spike argument (although I do have that special "not this shit again picture on standby :)), just to say that although Spike is a killer, he's hardly alone in the Buffyverse whitehats.
Buffy, Angel, Giles, Gunn, Wesley, Lorne, Faith, and Andrew have all killed humans and all had souls when they did. That's just off the top of my head.
You could add Willow, Anya and Oz too, but they were witched/demoned/wolfed out when they did though
 
I really don't want to read another Spike argument (although I do have that special "not this shit again picture on standby :))

Try this one:
SpikeIcon.jpg
 
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