I don't understand the whole "honor" thing with Klingons.

[The Rock]

I mean, they spout platitudes about honor and all that stuff, but at the same time they are always scheming against each other and finding ways to undermine one another. And a lot of them aren't above killing another one to get ahead. They're a lot like the Terran Empire from the MU in that way.

So what gives? Is their talk about "honor" just pure BS, or what?

 

[Vger23]

It's their cultural definition of "honor," not ours. Also, I think "honor" is to the Klingon Empire as "enlightenment and diversity" are to the Federation. Meaning, it's easier said than done.

Also, as Worf once said, "there is nothing more honorable than victory." I think that sums up the Klingon attitude nicely.

 

[Timo]

Indeed, there's no agreement among humans what honor is supposed to mean, either. Other than "we are honorable, you are dishonorable" - the distinction for which the whole concept was invented.

A society where violence is commonplace and might makes right is the one likelier to rely heavily on honor codes than a society where people just follow orders and make little fuss. Say, national law today is a solid code where the powerful rule of the government makes social interactions between the essentially powerless subjects so smooth that there's little room for either the use of force, threatening with said, or the honor codes needed to deal with that stuff. International law is a fiction, with emphatically empowered entities either fighting each other or then inventing a honor code or other pecking order that stands in for the fighting - the primary criterion being that it be flexible and unwritten so that nobody ever gets chased into a corner without an honorable way out.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[feek61]

It's interesting to read what "TMOST" says about Klingons on page 257 (derived from the writers guide from the original series) which is almost completely against what the present day perception of them is. Here is an excerpt:

Their only rule of life is that rules are made to be broken by shrewdness, deceit, or power. Cruelty is something admirable; honor is a despicable trait.

 

[Paradise City]

A moral code of whatever sort is aspirational. Klingon honour is a moral code is also aspirational. Vulcan are supposed to logical but are often held back by stigmas. They fall short of their value system. People fall short in human rights. Christianity, Islam or whatever the value system happens to be, people fall short on it. Value systems represent a polestar on how to behave; you strive to adhere it but you often lapse - because the flesh is weak. So it is with the Klingon honour system.

 

[Kor]

I mean, they spout platitudes about honor and all that stuff, but at the same time they are always scheming against each other and finding ways to undermine one another. And a lot of them aren't above killing another one to get ahead. They're a lot like the Terran Empire from the MU in that way.

So what gives? Is their talk about "honor" just pure BS, or what?

The Klingon concept of "honor" is simply different from the human concept (whatever that may be from culture to culture).

Sure, Klingons kill to get ahead, but this is often couched in the trappings of their ritualistic dueling tradition. And if a Klingon captain "lets himself" get killed by a subordinate, the cultural understanding is basically that it was time for him to be replaced anyway.

Consider this dialog from "A Matter of Honor" (source: chakoteya.net).

WORF: I have studied and know everything about my heritage.
RIKER: Then you're just the person I need to talk to, clear something up. It's my understanding that one of the duties of the First Officer of a Klingon ship is to assassinate his Captain?
WORF: Yes, sir.
RIKER: Wouldn't that bring about chaos?
WORF: Of course not. When and if the Captain becomes weak and unable to perform, it is expected that his honourable retirement should be assisted by his First. Your Second Officer will assassinate you for the same reasons.
RIKER: The method of attrition must take a little getting used to.
WORF: The Klingon system has operated successfully for centuries.
RIKER: It is different.
WORF: Many things will be different.

Kor

 

[TheGoodStuff]

I mean, they spout platitudes about honor and all that stuff, but at the same time they are always scheming against each other and finding ways to undermine one another. And a lot of them aren't above killing another one to get ahead. They're a lot like the Terran Empire from the MU in that way.

So what gives? Is their talk about "honor" just pure BS, or what?

The Klingons and their Honour is not 'BS'. It is a cornerstone of their society and it is in keeping with some of the interpretations of Honour from medieval Earth [it always varies]. What I think the real 'issue' that you're touching on is something Worf, Gowron and others mention on TNG frequently [which is something I like about TNG's depiction of the Klingons]: Klingon society is in a decayed state, in which deception/corruption/dishonourable conduct is rampant. This is thus removing them from their philosophy of Honour above all...the Klingons have an idealism that many of them are simply failing to reach. Their feudal house system only further exacerbates this as there is a constant power struggle going on in the Empire...it is easy to see how they would dissolve into civil war on a semi-regular basis if they do not have a powerful Chancellor.

As someone with a history degree...this is a pretty accurate portrayal of medieval society...they just also have warp drives and cloaks.

I love the Klingons and my interpretation of them is that they actually aren't that far removed from Federation ideals [in the sense that there is no Honour in attacking the defensless etc] but their society is warrior focused: thus there is substantial Honour to be gained from battle, conflict, conquest etc. I think it is also important to note that the deception/treachery that we do see is but a tiny portion of Klingons in general: the general populace may be far more trustworthy, honourable etc than what the House of Duras may lead us to believe.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

It happened by degrees.

If you rewatch the TOS episodes with the Romulans (particularly "Balance of Terror"), they were the ones who were obsessed with honor and duty. Klingons were all about treachery, deceit, and other villainous stereotypes. I believe that David Gerrold even said in his "Trouble with Tribbles" book that Klingons farted in airlocks, the fiends!!!

When the villains in TSFS shifted from the Romulans over to the Klingons, some of the Romulan "honor" dialogue was put into the Klingon Captain Kruge's mouth (we also shifted from Kirk's "Klingons don't take prisoners" in TWOK to Kruge outright saying, "I wanted prisoners!" when the Grissom is destroyed in TSFS).

When TNG came along, Robert Justman suggested that they put a Klingon on the bridge of the Enterprise, as a sign that the Federation had made peace with their long-time enemies, as predicted by the Organians in "Errand of Mercy." The honor thing worked well as an explanation of why we were now friends with the Klingons, so the honor thing became permanently grafted on to them and the Romulans became the shifty, deceitful ones.

In-universe, all I can speculate is that the smooth-headed Klingons did things differently from how the bumpy-headed ones did. When the bumpy-headed ones became predominant again, honor became more important in Klingon society.

 

[C.E. Evans]

It's a Klingon thing...

 

[Timo]

If you rewatch the TOS episodes with the Romulans (particularly "Balance of Terror"), they were the ones who were obsessed with honor and duty.

Well, only "Balance of Terror". In "The Deadly Years", they set a dastardly trap within the RNZ, violating it first in order to destroy the Enterprise for violating it later. The same happens in "The Enterprise Incident" where the Romulan Commander then tries to convince Spock that high treason is the commendable thing. In "The Practical Joker", they go one step further and in fact invade UFP territory for that.

And really, "Balance of Terror" is all about a cowardly and unjustified sneak attack, with a crew that infights and backstabs and expresses profound disbelief in the justification of the mission and the sanity of their superiors. Compared to that, Kor, Koloth and Kang are paragons of honor.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kor]

If we want to get nitpicky on who's honorable in the Trek universe, I think "Balance of Terror" placed more emphasis on Romulan obedience and duty than on honor. And in "The Enterprise Incident," when the Romulan commander spoke of honor, she was talking about the honorable reputation of the Vulcans, rather than Romulan honor.

And I think Kruge telling his beloved Valkris, "You will be remembered with honor," and then blasting her out of the stars, fits pretty well with the idea of brutal and treacherous TOS Klingons. Their particular idea of honor is something we would find barbaric and repulsive.

Kor

 

[JonnyQuest037]

And I think Kruge telling his beloved Valkris, "You will be remembered with honor," and then blasting her out of the stars, fits pretty well with the idea of brutal and treacherous TOS Klingons. Their particular idea of honor is something we would find barbaric and repulsive

That was brutal, but I wouldn't say it was treacherous. Valkris knew and accepted that she would be killed for seeing the Genesis tape, and she took it calmly.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

I mean, they spout platitudes about honor and all that stuff, but at the same time they are always scheming against each other and finding ways to undermine one another. And a lot of them aren't above killing another one to get ahead.

According to Mara in "The Day Of The Dove," the Klingon culture is one of "hunters, tracking and taking what [they] need," so this role likely exerts a strong influence on their concepts of what constitutes honor.

One might say that "scheming against and finding ways to undermine" one's quarry and then killing it is an apt description of what hunting entails.

 

[JesterFace]

Klingons have their own concept of honour that is different than ours, or, they're not actually very honourable at all, by our standards.

 

[Shat Happens]

Kruge started it all. He killed Valkris and declared she would be rememebered "with honor". Later the made the absurd tactical decision of sending 6 soldiers against 400 (he thought) and justified that with "We are Klingons!"

Kor's line "it would have been glorious" may have had something to do with it too.

When it came to invent TNG and Worf they went on from there. The rest was written on the fly as we know.

 

[Elder Knight]

The Vulcans can be hypocrites with regard to logic when it's inconvenient. Same for the Klingons and their honor.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

When it came to invent TNG and Worf they went on from there. The rest was written on the fly as we know.

Well, to be fair, TOS and the movies were written on the fly, too.

 

[Shat Happens]

Sure. I was thinking only about "the whole honor thing". I think that is a TNG (and onward)'s thing

 

[STEPhon IT]

It's interesting to read what "TMOST" says about Klingons on page 257 (derived from the writers guide from the original series) which is almost completely against what the present day perception of them is. Here is an excerpt:

Their only rule of life is that rules are made to be broken by shrewdness, deceit, or power. Cruelty is something admirable; honor is a despicable trait.

From that description I can definitely understand the Duras family's perception of the whole TNG Klingons. They must've been like, "What the fuck is the matter with you people? You're not acting like KLINGONS." Must have been a hard time dealing with their entire race being a bunch of morons, and completely out of character.

 

[Blamo]

So what gives? Is their talk about "honor" just pure BS, or what?

Mostly yes.

 

[Lance]

My take is that the only Klingon who really believes in their code of honor is Worf. And he was raised on Earth by humans, with (assumed) minor interaction with his own people growing up, so his definition of 'Klingon Honor' is almost wholely book-learned, and the real deal seldom live up to the ideal. Worf himself is probably often disappointed in his own people for not being everything that he personally aspires to be: the ultimate ultra-Klingon Klingon.