I am watching DS9 for the first time (some observations)

[STEPhon IT]

well its nice to know that some things still slip through the cracks

Yeah, like orchestrating a scenario where the Romulans can get into the war efforts; a nice position to get a heroes hands dirty and can easily/ conveniently wipe it out existence. And No, I didn't like "In the Pale Moonlight" it is beyond embarrassing to be a Star Trek episode.

 

[Court_Vince]

Yeah, like orchestrating a scenario where the Romulans can get into the war efforts; a nice position to get a heroes hands dirty and can easily/ conveniently wipe it out existence. And No, I didn't like "In the Pale Moonlight" it is beyond embarrassing to be a Star Trek episode.

Well I haven't gotten that episode yet in fact i'm only finished Doctor Bashir, I presume? yesterday iirc

 

[Court_Vince]

And speaking of that...
1st thought: Zimmerman/Picardo!! It was nice to nice to both the character and the actor as i've mainly been watching DS9 I havent seen my favorite crew in while
2nd thought(okay basically all my other thoughts): This episode was pretty good Bashir being genetically enhanced gives his character some nice depth and when his mother gives the speech about they blamed themselves and they only did it because they loved him oof it still kinda gets at my heartstrings. But it doesn't change the fact the parents are still pretty awful for it, especially since now ppl wonder how bad Bashir disabilities actually were

 

[STEPhon IT]

Court_Vance parents will do everything in their power to help their children and I understand their POV, but I just didn't feel this story needed to be told... unless it was a way to replace the science officer who hasn't been a science officer since season 4, and was more of a Helmsman. Since that Science Officer was no longer going to be on the show, if the writers needed any science to be told it could be through the voice of Dr. Bashir. As for the episode, I just don't buy the Admiral's reasoning because genetic engineering didn't create Noonien Singh it was his personal experience and his environment which created him, where's the evidence to say Julian Bashir was even close to having the kind of experience Singh did? He was raised by loving parents who cared for his welfare and his future, they showed nothing but unconditional love for their son and as we know Bashir is a great man... because of his parents, his background, his medical integrity to save lives and his duty to the uniform.

 

[kkt]

Yeah, like orchestrating a scenario where the Romulans can get into the war efforts; a nice position to get a heroes hands dirty and can easily/ conveniently wipe it out existence. And No, I didn't like "In the Pale Moonlight" it is beyond embarrassing to be a Star Trek episode.

Well, tricking the Romulan senator is certainly not what Picard would have done. However, Picard might have regrets if he could have brought the Romulans into the war and didn't, when the Dominion were busy exterminating the population of Earth. Of course for Picard technobabble would have come to the rescue and somehow the Federation would have won the war anyway -- which is just lazy storytelling, presenting a false dilemma.

Sisko acted with Starfleet Command's approval, got the Romulans to join the war, saved the Federation, and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator and one petty forger who was due to be executed anyway, and a bit of Sisko's self respect. Pretty light losses, compared to even one battle. As Garak said, that's got to be the bargain of the century. I'm glad Star Trek told a story with some serious potential consequences that couldn't be handwaved away with Boy Scout codes of honor.

 

[Herbert]

I guess the fact Eddington betrayed him under command got to him even worse then we thought and it still is insane to me that no one tried to take Sisko out of command or least tried to convince him of other options

It was refreshing to see a goody two shoes Federation officer make a decision like that. Too often the Federation is written to be virtuous without exception. It's not very realistic even for a (fictional) idealized human future. It was nice to see someone do something real for a change. It would have been great to see Picard use the virus on the Borg and cripple them. Even Janeway made some very un-Federation like decisions. You can present a vision of the 'perfection' that future humans may attain but sometimes it's more real and interesting to show them at the opposite end of that spectrum

 

[Herbert]

I find it interesting that Worf's character changed from TNG to DS9. I'm not sure what I was expecting when he first shows up on the station but while on the Enterprise we watch Worf remain Klingon while managing to adapt and even assimilate human characteristics. He's shown with an occasional sense of humor and even the ability to form deep friendships with other crew members. On DS9, he's stiff, closed off, and that personality we see from TNG isn't really there. On DS9 he shows antipathy towards contact with most people even to the point of quartering on the Defiant. That's certainly a change from the Enterprise. His TNG personality not be totally gone but it's quite different. There's nothing wrong with that. It does make his character more interesting but I prefer TNG Worf to DS9 Worf.

 

[DonIago]

I think that could be summed up as: the folks on DS9 were his friends, but the folks on the Big E were his family.

 

[Herbert]

Except that at times he seems like a very reluctant friend, if he's a friend at all. It's more like he tolerates them as acquaintances.

 

[thribs]

You lucky bastard. Wish I could watch it for the first time again.

 

[DonIago]

Except that at times he seems like a very reluctant friend, if he's a friend at all. It's more like he tolerates them as acquaintances.

I think it depends on the person.

 

[Noname Given]

^I think the thing that annoys me the most about that episode is the number of times I've seen people (not including you here) say things along the lines of "Sisko poisoned a planet!!!" when the episode explicitly states at the end that the Cardassians and Maquis are going to exchange poisoned planets and even at the time it's said that the attack will only make the planet poisonous to some species.

I never know how many people really just didn't pay attention, and how many are being intentionally inaccurate in service of their own agendas.

What amazes me is the fans always wanting to DEFEND Ben Sisko's choice to fire weapons at a peaceful colony because some Maquis were hiding out there and because the Cardassians were going to do it anyway <-- As if it makes the choice okay. In the episode even his officers were (IMO rightfully) questioning the order.
^^^
Now please understand I LIKED it because it was a hard choice - and was a morally questionable one - but it showed actul human beings still existed in the 24th century; and further that Ben Sisko wasn't always an upstanding or completely moral officer (of course we already knew that from "In The Pale Moonlight"). So yeah, twice in his career Sisko effectively committed a war crime. Life is sometimes a bitch.

 

[DonIago]

Can one commit a "war crime" when there's no war? The UFP certainly wasn't at war with the Maquis.

That said, I'd love to see a board of inquiry convened regarding this situation, because I am rather curious as to how/whether what Sisko did really is legal under Starfleet regulations. It's implied to be, but maybe we missed Sisko facing consequences for his actions.

Anyway, I'm not saying Sisko's actions were right, or legal, or what-not, I'm just saying that I don't like it when people (possibly deliberately) accuse him of something he didn't actually do but which sounds more dramatic.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

2nd thought(okay basically all my other thoughts): This episode was pretty good Bashir being genetically enhanced gives his character some nice depth and when his mother gives the speech about they blamed themselves and they only did it because they loved him oof it still kinda gets at my heartstrings. But it doesn't change the fact the parents are still pretty awful for it, especially since now ppl wonder how bad Bashir disabilities actually were

It's kinda like how parents insist their kids have ADHD and pour all sorts of drugs into them--some want the quick fix.

Can one commit a "war crime" when there's no war? The UFP certainly wasn't at war with the Maquis.

The Federation's "war or terror" perhaps?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The guy who punches Q attacks a terorist camp: where is the inconsistency?

 

[kkt]

Attacking the planet where some Maquis were hiding was a story with interesting moral dimensions, it being retaliation in kind for what the Maquis did, their refusal to be relocated to any available pleasantly habitable planet, defending their settlements as if they were land passed down from their great-great-grandparents instead of just settled about 20 year ago, etc.

Punching Q, on the other hand, was just a stupid thing to do. It has no more effect on Q than an ant trying to punch a picnicker. He was lucky Q just laughed it off instead of taking offense.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Attacking the planet where some Maquis were hiding was a story with interesting moral dimensions, it being retaliation in kind for what the Maquis did, their refusal to be relocated to any available pleasantly habitable planet, defending their settlements as if they were land passed down from their great-great-grandparents instead of just settled about 20 year ago, etc.

Punching Q, on the other hand, was just a stupid thing to do. It has no more effect on Q than an ant trying to punch a picnicker. He was lucky Q just laughed it off instead of taking offense.

I'm not at all arguing that they are the same thing. Instead, I am pointing out that Sisko was never by any means the dutiful Starfleet officer, not in his dealings with Q, the Circle, the Maquis, the Dominion,etc. In many circumstances before For the Uniform, he was willing to buck command to get the results he wanted.

 

[CRM-114]

I am so jealous of how many people get to watch DS9 for the first time. Of course, everyone here whose watching it for the first time are definitely falling in love with it (it is the pinnacle of the franchise after all), so you'll all be able to proudly call yourselves "Niners"

About two seasons in, I'd call DS9 my favorite series. None of the other series has ever quite hooked me the way this show does. It feels like the one series really trying the most to do something different with the premise. Thinking back on VOY, the first Trek series I watched with any regularity, I can't help but think about what a missed opportunity that series was, overall. Being off-network might've hindered DS9's exposure at the time, but I can't help thinking being syndicated gave them the freedom to take more chances in terms of storytelling.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Thinking back on VOY, the first Trek series I watched with any regularity, I can't help but think about what a missed opportunity that series was, overall.

That's my generally feeling for VOY as well, it had so much potential and could've been great, but never quite hit the mark.

 

[DonIago]

I remember part of why I was so excited for VOY was that the writing on DS9 was starting to find its stride, and VOY had a good premise out of the gate...and then they took the path of least resistance and it was so disappointing... The show has its moments, but most of those moments have little to do with what it was allegedly setting out to do.