I actually liked 'Valiant"

[Jbarney]

This was one of the rare episodes I did not catch the first time through....when the episodes were on television. Last night I watched this one for the first time and while the episode was obviously annoying at times, I keep looking back and realizing I enjoyed it.

I could see an ambitous group of the best cadets picking up the mission when their commanding officers were killed. It kind of explored the affects of war in the sence that these youngsters joined Starfleet not really understanding the complexities or ravages of war.

Not perfect, not fantastic by any stretch of the imagination, but watchable and better than some.....

 

[Photon]

I did too.

My two favorite parts:

And I another parts I kinda like:

Evil laugh

 

[Marie1]

Yeah, I will say I liked the end.

 

[TheGodBen]

I liked it very much because the little snots got what they had coming to them. It would have been an awful episode had Red Squad succeeded in their plan, but because they got blowed up real good I found the episode quite enjoyable.

 

[Hofner]

Actually, I found the ending to be very tragic. What a waste of a perfectly good starship.

Robert

 

[TheGodBen]

Meh, there'll be a Valiant-A knocking about a month later, no harm done.

 

[Navaros]

I love Vailiant. A truly great episode. I'll never understand why most people hate it so much. If they succeeded, I would. But since they got blown to smithereens like they deserve, it makes it into a wonderful episode. The great quotation from one DS9 fan always comes to mind: "Thank God the Jem'Hadar can aim!"

I'll also never understand why Abrams' Trek is generally seen as a good movie by Trek fans , especially considering that they rehashed the Valiant plot practically scene for scene and the lame cadet kiddies actually succeeded and then got handed control of the entire Federation. In other words, Abrams' Trek is Valiant done badly, hence its popularity and Valiant's unpopularity is totally inexplicable.

 

[DevilEyes]

I love Vailiant. A truly great episode. I'll never understand why most people hate it so much. If they succeeded, I would. But since they got blown to smithereens like they deserve, it makes it into a wonderful episode. The great quotation from one DS9 fan always comes to mind: "Thank God the Jem'Hadar can aim!"

I'll also never understand why Abrams' Trek is generally seen as a good movie by Trek fans , especially considering that they rehashed the Valiant plot practically scene for scene and the lame cadet kiddies actually succeeded and then got handed control of the entire Federation. In other words, Abrams' Trek is Valiant done badly, hence its popularity and Valiant's unpopularity is totally inexplicable.

Except for the fact that they were absolutely nothing like the cadets from Valiant. (Unless you hold the belief that "a cadet is a cadet is a cadet" or "all young people are the same, those annoying brats "). But who cares for such minor details...

 

[Navaros]

Except for the fact that they were absolutely nothing like the cadets from Valiant.

I don't agree. They were pretty much exactly the same IMO; the only discernable difference is that the Abrams' ones were given the names of popular characters.

And the scene in which 'Kirk' is telling them "they are going down, or we are!" is pretty much identical to this scene from Valiant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-sLkA8s0OQ

 

[DevilEyes]

Except for the fact that they were absolutely nothing like the cadets from Valiant.

I don't agree. They were pretty much exactly the same IMO; the only discernable difference is that the Abrams' ones were given the names of popular characters.

And the scene in which 'Kirk' is telling them "they are going down, or we are!" is pretty much identical to this scene from Valiant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-sLkA8s0OQ

So you're saying that their young captain was getting them in completely unnecessary danger because of over-confidence, while there were much better options available, and that everyone on the ship was blindly admiring him and nobody was questioning his decisions?

Maybe we watched different movies.

 

[Navaros]

So you're saying that their young captain was getting them in completely unnecessary danger because of over-confidence, while there were much better options available, and that everyone on the ship was blindly admiring him and nobody was questioning his decisions?

Maybe we watched different movies.

Yup, sure am saying that. 'Spock' even suggested they go rendezvous with the Federation forces, just like Jake does in Valiant. But 'Kirk'/Watters refused and then gives a big speech on how they must do it on their own and take the all glory for themselves etc.

The only difference, really, is that they tacked on a successful ending to Abrams' version whereas the DS9 version had a realistic ending instead.

I wonder if most DS9 fans would like instead of hate Valiant if the cadets had succeeded?

 

[Jbarney]

No, I think their success is in that they were able to survive for 7.5 months on their own without any command officers. While I liked the episode, the actions of the cadets were predictable. Having them die at least gave the impression that war is horrible and unforgiving regardless of age or experience.

 

[RyuRoots]

I always liked this episode and never understood the hate for it. It painted why Red Squad (in-universe) was a horrible, horrible idea. When you single out a group and call them "the elite", their heads get big and they feel invincible. The cadet-crew of the Valiant was certainly competent, and they believed they could take down the dreadnought, but it was all overconfidence, and some blinding sense of loyalty to Watters, and some twisted form of loyalty to Starfleet. I enjoyed watching Nog get swept up in it, and watching Watters attempt (although ultimately fail) a balance between the ambitious cadet and the wise captain. At the end, I like to think that Red Squad was disbanded after this incident was made public. I think it's one of those good examination of the human condition kind of episodes. Taking a look at pride, loyalty, and the wisdom of knowing when you're in over your head.

 

[plynch]

As usual, it's execution: Predictable. Comic-book-esque dialog. I cringed when they all stood around chanting "Red Squad, Red Squad." Woof.

 

[nx1701g]

To be honest Valiant is a guilty pleasure episode of mine. I actually do like it.

 

[AdmiralGarak]

I'll also never understand why Abrams' Trek is generally seen as a good movie by Trek fans , especially considering that they rehashed the Valiant plot practically scene for scene and the lame cadet kiddies actually succeeded and then got handed control of the entire Federation. In other words, Abrams' Trek is Valiant done badly, hence its popularity and Valiant's unpopularity is totally inexplicable.

While exaggerated, I think that you make a good point that I had never considered before. (For the record, I find both stories to be a completely 'meh', though I'd probably be happier watching Valiant.)

 

[anti-matter]

Well there were worse episodes for sure.

Their bratty arrogance aside 'Valiant' didn't really advance the main arc along, for that it gets a ...meh.

As an aside whenever there are rumors of an SF academy type movie this episode gets mentioned.

 

[ClayHefner]

I also never got the hate for this episode.
The thought of people disliking the episode because those fanatical teenies were owned is disturbing.
That would also not have been what people wanted to see in the 90s. Those were the days, people. It's like DS9 had to provide the Trek commentaries for the 2000s in advance, too- where Enterprise failed so hard.

 

[Vanyel]

I liked Valiant too. It was just a cadet, little different from Locarno, that wanted to come back a bigger hero than he already was. He kept his crew alive behind enemy lines for 7 months, that would have secured him a choice position most likely on any ship he wanted. In stead he wanted to go farther. As Nog said, "He was a bad captain."

 

[Daneel]

I think "Valiant" is an okay episode; a decent little cautionary tale against arrogance and overconfidence. Kind of a tragic in a way, reminding us of the danger in letting pride cloud your judgement, and how those closest to you can pay the price.

As for comparing it to the recent Star Trek movie, well, I can sort of see where you're coming from, but I completely disagree. In the movie, the Enterprise wasn't manned entirely by cadets, and the situation was rather different too. If the Enterprise joined the fleet in the Laurentian system, Nero would've destroyed Earth. The stakes were too high, so Kirk had to fight on the slim chance that they could win. There was no such immediate threat in "Valiant" -- the cadets just try to destroy the Jem'Hadar ship because they think they can. So we have Kirk and co. = trying to stop a genocidal madman from destroying another planet; and we have Watters and co. = trying to prove that they're better than everyone else. It seems to me that the differences are not exactly insignificant.

Oh, and just a little bit of personal trivia, if anyone's interested: I actually used to work with the actor who played Watters. Pleasant guy.