Hypotheticals: what could have been done to improve Nemesis?

[Lance]

Any suggestions on this one? Obviously there were many alternative options available. From Patrick Stewart having been cast as both Picard and Shinzon (although that wouldn't have worked if they'd kept the B-4 plot as well; two Picards AND two Datas might have been too much for us to bear!), all the way through to using the link between Picard and Beverly's characters to much better effect (the actual movie hints at this in one scene, but doesn't really follow through with it).

In fact, I'm going to suggest something that could still be done to improve it. The ending. We all know there was an alternative ending shot for the picture. Most of us have probably seen it in the DVD special features. I'd suggest that if a Director's Cut scenario ever came up, one of the best things they could ever do would be to completely remove all of the "Picard meets with B-4" scenes at the end. Instead, they should have segued directly from the 'wake' for Data to the scenes of Riker leaving the ship, and the new first officer being introduced. In this scenario Data still dies, but the series ends on an optomistic note without having that stupid little coda suggesting that Data isn't really dead at all. Out of everything that the film does wrong, that scene at the very end is what truly torpedoes it. It just leaves a bitter aftertaste. I love the 'wake' scene for Data, but Jean Luc being there to hear B-4 humming Blue Skies at the end just shits all over it. If they were going to leave the door open for Spiner's return, they'd have been better off contriving something in the 'next' film, instead of sullying Nemesis with it, in my opinion.

But anyway. What do you think? How would you have changed TNG's cinematic swan song for the better?

 

[CorporalClegg]

One thing that would have helped a lot would have been a massive rewrite. The dialog was just so clunky and cumbersome. I think Hardy was fine. I mean obviously he's a very talented actor, but every time I here Fisher or Hamill whine about awkward dialog I want to here them cough up some the stuff Hardy had to struggle through.

Most importantly though, the film just needed a director who cared. Baird obviously didn't. And I don't even know that it's so much he was just the wrong choice. I think he would have been okay had he actually put a little heart and effort into it.

Because I get the whole "get someone from the outside" bit, but I think that's the biggest difference between him and Abrams--Abrams actually did some research and cared about his craft. Baird just treated it like a paycheck.

And it's so obvious. I mean given the actors' anecdotes of how he treated them on the set, it's pretty clear they basically just stumbled through the movie like zombies.

 

[zephramc]

As CorporalClegg pointed out, the script needed a complete rewrite and the film needed a different director.

I think the revenge story would have worked alot better if it had been someone like Tomalak (it would have been great to have Katsulas on the bigscreen as well) as the antagonist. The opening of the movie could have shown Picard commanding a fleet of Fed, Klingon and Romulan ships in the Dominion war with Tomalak's son in command of one of the Romulan ships. Somehow the son is killed. Picard gives the news to Tomalak who doesn't take it very well and sets out to avenge his son's death, leading into the main story.

I'd drop the B4 story completely.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Katsulas would have been awesome, but I don't know if his health would have allowed it.

His appearance on Enterprise was one (if not the) last jobs he did. That was right around Nemesis IIRC.

 

[Therin of Andor]

There are some great little moments that the film fails to provide enough information about. Little cues and clues: the job of a director to convey the nuances of the scripted page into the action of the film. I think Jonathan Frakes would have found such moments, but he was seemingly blamed for the lack of box office excitement from "Insurrection".

I realised after the first viewing of "Nemesis" that Picard is actually a little tipsy for his wedding speech, which is hilarious. Many reviewers and fans thought it was Patrick Stewart not caring about his role anymore, slurring his words, "phoning it in", etc.

Sadly, the film causes us to say, "Another one?" when bits of B-4 are found. We assume it's not Lore - that would be an added complication the general public wouldn't bring to the film. I don't mind the "Blue Skies" reprise, but Data was my favourite ST character. I cried for Spock, I cried for Lal, I cried for Jadzia - I was not emotionally affected enough by the death of my favourite character. And that is the director's fault as well. I think the script had enough detail, but the director failed to mine it.

Part of the long "bonus scene" of Data and Picard toasting after the wedding desperately needed to be included in the final cut, as it sets up the sentiments expressed at the wake.

Although I know that a whole USS Titan model being designed/built for a fleeting scene at the end of "Nemesis" was not the way to go at the time (economically, esp.), looking back such a scene would have been very satisfying.

Riker and Troi preparing to leave for a long term mission on the Titan would have strengthened ENT's "All Good Things...", too, not the way they did it, ie. unsuccessfully recreating scenes (and waistlines, jowls and accents) to fit awkwardly between "The Pegasus".

 

[Ultramann]

It should have Sela instead of Shinzon. They could have easily given a quickstory like they did in the 2nd part of the season 5 opener.

 

[Balrog]

The premise was flawed from the beginning. Picard's clone was an ok idea. But the idea someone has a clone being this "great mysterious wonder" is just bunk. Clones are nothing more than having an identical twin. All that garbage of, "I'm you! I know what you're thinking!" was silly, and made me giggle when I saw the movie the first time.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I'd probably would have Shinzon simply be the Romulan version of Picard in the sense that he was the captain of their flagship with a long and distinguished service record. During the course of their meetings, the two men would have learned that they actually are very much alike and would otherwise be friends, but it's the dogma & politics of their governments that makes them enemies.

No B4, but I still would have killed off Data.

Would have kept the Madden introduction.

Would have introduced a new female character to replace Data--an alien, but she would be similar to how Data was in the beginning in the sense that she doesn't fully understand what makes Humans tick.

 

[Christopher]

The premise was flawed from the beginning. Picard's clone was an ok idea. But the idea someone has a clone being this "great mysterious wonder" is just bunk. Clones are nothing more than having an identical twin.

Not really. Contrary to the usual conceits of fiction, a clone is an offspring rather than a sibling. The reason it was a great wonder for Picard is because Shinzon was essentially his son, and that father-son dynamic between them is the emotional and dramatic core of the film.

And that's part of why it would've been a mistake for Patrick Stewart to play the role. Shinzon needed to be a younger version of Picard, someone who could bring out the paternal instincts in him, make him want to guide and inspire the young man and suffer the disappointment a parent feels when a child goes astray. And Shinzon's resentment toward Picard needed to be that of a son overshadowed by his great father, struggling to assert his own identity by rejecting and turning against his father figure. Of course, the other reason it would've been a mistake is that then we wouldn't have had these two strong actors getting to play off one another directly, a genuine one-on-one performance rather than a special-effects trick.


I actually think Nemesis is a very good movie with a few glaring flaws. I think you could mostly fix it just by cutting out the entire dune-buggy chase (cut right from the discovery of B-4's last piece back up to the ship) and restoring at least some of the thematically important Picard-Data ready-room conversation after the wedding reception, the discussion of transition and mortality which helps lay the groundwork for the decisions Data makes later in the film.

Though there were certainly other tweaks that could've been made, like not having Picard be so foolish that he didn't realize in advance that Shinzon would attack the ship the moment it flew into a region that interfered with communications. And the film didn't really need the contrived threat against Earth. I think it does somewhat make sense as a symbolic act on Shinzon's part, defying and surpassing his legendary "father" by destroying the homeworld that Picard has striven so hard to protect, but it still feels a bit tacked on and not all that relevant to the far more personal struggle that's at the heart of the film.

Also the personal transporter pin thingy was silly -- even if you could make a transporter that small, how can a transporter continue to work once it's dematerialized itself? (True, we saw something similar in VGR: "Non Sequitur," but I assume it was just a remote activator for the Starfleet HQ transporter grid.) And they could've come up with a better justification for why Data couldn't beam back with Picard, or why Picard couldn't just beam out on his own.

 

[Rarewolf]

Personally for me I find Tom Hardy looks more like Wil Weaton than Patrick Stewart. I would have had Sela in the film.

Also the personal transporter pin thingy was silly -- even if you could make a transporter that small, how can a transporter continue to work once it's dematerialized itself? (True, we saw something similar in VGR: "Non Sequitur," but I assume it was just a remote activator for the Starfleet HQ transporter grid.) And they could've come up with a better justification for why Data couldn't beam back with Picard, or why Picard couldn't just beam out on his own.

Especially since Data is technology. Even if you said the Transporter could only handle one lifeform, Data would not have life signs. Detach his head if needs be, just save that.


Dunno why they'd not use shuttles either.

 

[ScottDS]

Short of a massive re-write and a different director...

I would start by adding all but one of the deleted scenes back into the film. I have to agree with Stuart Baird that Shinzon's original intro (we saw bits of this in the teaser) spoils the surprise later on when we see Picard's reaction to him... such as it is.

I think this film would've been a good occasion to rekindle the Picard/Beverly romance. Even at the time, I had an idea how this could work. They could share a dance/quiet talk at the wedding (which would necessitate making that scene even longer) and during the "wake" for Data, we'd cut to a two-shot of Picard and Beverly standing next to each other and then to a close-up of Beverly holding Picard's hand. Faced with the death of a long-time friend and co-worker who was supposed to "outlast" everyone else, they realize life is short after all.

I don't mind Admiral Janeway's appearance though I didn't like her dialogue and the cheap callbacks to FC and INS (as if the Enterprise only goes on missions every two years when a movie comes out!). I actually would've had Janeway show up at the wedding where she intercepts Picard and briefs him on his mission. On the way to Romulus, they get diverted to the Kolarin System.

Instead of the positronic signal appearing seemingly at random, I think switching the order of scenes might help with connecting them with Shinzon's plan, implying that Shinzon knows Picard would want to solve the mystery before coming to Romulus. "Just as I expected..." and so on and so forth.

I'm just making this up as I go.

 

[Captaindemotion]

1. While I have no problem with them going for an outside director (though I think Frakes did a good job with the previous two), they should have gotten someone who had a little more respect for the series. He didn't have to be a huge fan but, like Nick Meyer or JJ Abrams, he could have at least pretended to respect it.

2. Tom Hardy is a great actor but he is not credible as the younger version of Patrick Stewart, certainly not when sharing screentime with him. I saw the poster for Men In Black 3 the other day and I had no problem accepting that Josh Brolin was the younger Tommy Lee Jones (in fact, it's hard to believe that they're not the same person!) but Hardy and Stewart - no. Marina Sirtis suggested that James Marsters could have been a more physically convincing Shinzon and I have to agree with her.

3. Another superweapon? Really?

4. The attack on Earth did seem tacked-on, as oppose to, e.g. the threat in First Contact. A different climax would have helped.

5. Did we need the Remans? We'd never seen Romulans as the main villain in a Trek movie and, after 9 movies, we get these space Nosferatus? Give me proper Rommies. And what is the point in casting the lovely Dina Meyer and the great Ron Perlman, then giving them nothing to do?

6. While I appreciate that the movie had to appeal to a broad audience and not just TNG fans, it seemed odd to have a movie set around Romulus and not feature Sela, Tomalak or, (dare I say it?) Spock. Andreas Katsulas had worked with Baird before (Executive Decision) - shame no-one renewed that connection.

7. Drop the B-4 plot. And if you're going to kill Data, don't just give us a death scene that pales in comparison to TWOK and then add in, by implication, the cop-out from TSFS.

8. All this talk of Riker's new ship and the new bridge crew for the ENT-E and we don't get to see either? Am I the only one who wanted to see Riker do a Sulu and fly off in his own ship at the end of the movie?

 

[Christopher]

2. Tom Hardy is a great actor but he is not credible as the younger version of Patrick Stewart, certainly not when sharing screentime with him.

Well, I think actor chemistry is more important than a convincing physical resemblance. You just have to suspend disbelief about these things. Chris Pine and Simon Pegg don't look like Shatner and Doohan, yet Spock Prime recognized them as Kirk and Scotty on sight. And nobody seemed to notice when Saavik's face changed between movies. What we see as viewers of a film isn't necessarily what the characters in-universe see. Ultimately these are actors playing roles, and their performances matter more than their appearances.

5. Did we need the Remans?

I certainly think so. It's so ridiculous the way Star Trek gives us so many so-called "empires" and populates them entirely with a single species. An empire, by definition, is one state or nation ruling over multiple others. A state isn't an empire without subject peoples, yet ST usually ignores that. I thought it was smart, refreshing, and long overdue for NEM to portray the Romulan Empire as an actual empire with subject races.

 

[BillJ]

Hypotheticals: what could have been done to improve Nemesis?

Go back in time before Insurrection was made and tell Stewart and Spiner to go take a flying leap when they tried to assert creative control over the movie franchise.

 

[Balrog]

I'd probably would have Shinzon simply be the Romulan version of Picard in the sense that he was the captain of their flagship with a long and distinguished service record. During the course of their meetings, the two men would have learned that they actually are very much alike and would otherwise be friends, but it's the dogma & politics of their governments that makes them enemies.

Which is 'Balance of Terror' from TOS.

Not that I would have minded it at all, as long as it was executed properly. The episode was a rehash of the movie 'The Enemy Below'

Also, I would have preferred a Picard clone that had all of Picard's memories and experiences, but was programmed with Romulan dogma and politics. Now THAT would have been an interesting movie. Imagine the conversation as Picard tries to reason with his Romulan-cloned self.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I'd probably would have Shinzon simply be the Romulan version of Picard in the sense that he was the captain of their flagship with a long and distinguished service record. During the course of their meetings, the two men would have learned that they actually are very much alike and would otherwise be friends, but it's the dogma & politics of their governments that makes them enemies.

Which is 'Balance of Terror' from TOS.

I was thinking of it being an indirect sequel to that episode, but taking it further and making it much bigger in scale. I also would have had both men meet each other a few times early on the film under more peaceful circumstances and to have really liked each other, making what came later both ironic and tragic. The ending would have been different from "Balance of Terror," however.

 

[Christopher]

Also, I would have preferred a Picard clone that had all of Picard's memories and experiences, but was programmed with Romulan dogma and politics. Now THAT would have been an interesting movie. Imagine the conversation as Picard tries to reason with his Romulan-cloned self.

But the "clone with the memories of the original" trope is one of the silliest cliches of clone stories in fiction. There's absolutely no sensible reason why a clone would have the original's knowledge or memory. Those things aren't genetic. Sure, some stories rationalize it by assuming mind scans and downloads or katra transfers or whatever, but how the heck could the Romulans have scanned Picard's mind without him knowing about it?

Besides, Shinzon already did share many of Picard's core personality traits -- his natural leadership, his brilliance, his initiative -- but because his upbringing was one of persecution and despair, those same qualities were twisted toward conquest and vengeance. He had the arrogance and passion that we know Picard had in his youth, but not the tempering that had enabled Picard to develop self-discipline and wisdom. So what you're suggesting is only a variation on what they already did. We don't have to imagine the scene of Picard trying to reason with his cloned self, because there are several of them already in the film and they're the best parts of it. And I don't know how it even could've worked the way you're suggesting. If he had all of Picard's memories, how could he possibly believe in Romulan dogmas? Our values are shaped by our experiences. To have a different value system, Shinzon had to have a different set of life experiences.

 

[Captaindemotion]

2. Tom Hardy is a great actor but he is not credible as the younger version of Patrick Stewart, certainly not when sharing screentime with him.

Well, I think actor chemistry is more important than a convincing physical resemblance. You just have to suspend disbelief about these things. Chris Pine and Simon Pegg don't look like Shatner and Doohan, yet Spock Prime recognized them as Kirk and Scotty on sight. And nobody seemed to notice when Saavik's face changed between movies. What we see as viewers of a film isn't necessarily what the characters in-universe see. Ultimately these are actors playing roles, and their performances matter more than their appearances.

The difference is that Pine and Pegg weren't sharing the screen with Shatner and Doohan. And the Saavik change happened, as you say, between movies. As such, the lack of resemblances there were much less apparent and important.

When you have two characters onscreen and other characters are commenting on their resemblance and you're thinking 'Er, what resemblance?' something is wrong. IIRC, there was some remark about Shinzon's broken nose (even though it's Picard's nose which looks broken). Their lips are different, ditto their cheekbones. It was even apparent to me that Tom Hardy's head was shaved - you could see his hairline undere it.

Now, maybe had the film overall been more entertaining and diverting, I could have let it slide. In another thread about STXII, I said that people will be able to overlook Benedict Cumberbath's lack of resemblance to Ricardo Montalban if they are entertained by his performance and the movie in general. But the Stewart/ Hardy was just another flaw in a series of them in this movie, for me anyway.

 

[Christopher]

To me it's just a matter of suspension of disbelief. I once saw a performance of Hamlet where Hamlet was white and his uncle Claudius was black. You just had to look past appearances and accept the story being told.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ I know what you mean, but I'm more willing to suspend disbelief where I'm enjoying the rest of the movie. All in all, Nemesis wasn't working for me, so I just couldn't overlook this issue.

The issue didn't arise for me with the two Spocks in ST'09 because Nimoy and Quinto actually DO look like clones to begin with. But even had they not had such a striking physical resemblance, I could have coped as the rest of the movie was so entertaining.