Hypotheticals: what could have been done to improve Nemesis?

[Lance]

I was watching a few of the deleted scenes from Nemesis last night. It's quite astounding how good these 'left on the cutting room floor' scenes are, compared to what actually made it to the screen. Some of them -- the scene in Picard's quarters where he talks to Data -- are actually essential to the plot, while others are simply more in line with Next Gen. I have little doubt that their inclusion would make Nemesis a stronger film. It's actually kind of heartbreaking to see Gates McFadden say in interviews from the time about how "I can actually recognise the character of Beverley Crusher in this movie" compared to the previous two, given how Doctor Crusher got all these great little moments that were snipped from the final picture.

I'd *love* to see a re-edit of Nemesis, to see some of these extra scenes go back in to it. But not a Director's Cut. That would mean having to let Stuart Baird near the franchise again, and I don't think any of us want that. I don't know, maybe they should just let Frakes get his hands on the footage and assemble a version which is truer to the spirit of TNG?

Oh, and Baird should have cast himself as Shinzon. He's got this really creepy way of talking, especially when he talks at length about Troi's mind rape scenes.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^I know what you mean. I haven't seen the NEM DVD but he's on the extras for the Superman movies DVDs and I remember thinking that he looked like a child molester! lol

 

[-SS-]

I read that Tom Hardy wore a prosthetic chin to look more like Stewart, but I think it made him look more like Wil Wheaton.

That's one thing I would've changed.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

What on earth is strange about being disappointed that a movie doesn't tell the sort of story you want?

It's a little selfish. My favourite race is the Gorn. I want a Gorn story in the movies. It doesn't make sense to a hate a movie for not having the Gorn.

I understand people love the Romulans and want to see more of them. But it was never advertised as a Romulan movie. Every single trailer I saw was about Clones and duplicates (Picard's and Data's) so I'm not sure where these expectations could have come from?

Was it strange when people didn't like Batman and Robin because it was a campfest, when they hoped it would be more of a Dark Knight type story? Was it strange when people didn't like Transformers 2 because they wanted things like plot or character in it?

People didn't hate Batman and Robin because they were hoping for Dark Knight, they hated it for being a bad movie.

Hating something bad for being bad is one thing (Transformers 2). But hating something because it didn't feature the type of story you were hoping for I honestly don't understand.

Do people hate Jaws because they were expecting an alien story simply because they like those more?

 

[DonIago]

I think most people would agree that there's a huge difference between being disappointed that a movie didn't do something you were hoping and/or had reason to expect it might, and "hating" it. Has anyone actually said that they "hated" Nemesis for not featuring the Romulans more prominently?

I've never hated a Trek movie. It's a Star Trek movie, for god's sake...what would be the point in wasting that kind of energy on it?

Since AFAIK TPTB have never even remotely indicated that a Trek movie would feature the Gorn, it would be pretty silly to expect a major appearance by them in the films, to date anyway. That said, I'm pretty sure that there were indications that both "Nemesis" and Trek '09 might have a strong Romulan presence, and I think it's a legitimate argument that, if that's the case, then the movies themselves didn't really live up to it, in that they both focused on rogue factions rather than the recognized Romulan government at the time.

 

[CoveTom]

What could have been done to improve Nemesis? Uhm... fire?

Seriously, though, there's a lot of potential there. I think it's primarily Baird's execution that is bad. As has been mentioned, there were a lot of good character scenes left on the cutting room floor. Here you have a story that opens itself to tons of possibilities for both Picard and Data, yet Baird decided that the focus of the film should be action and special effects.

Unlike TFF, which has a lot of problems that cannot be fixed through simple editing, I think Nemesis could be improved greatly just by putting together a new cut. Aside from chroma keying in the appropriate starfields outside of windows, you wouldn't need any new effects work like you would with TFF. I think just a better job of editing this thing to focus more on the characters, and less on the action, could work wonders.

 

[Captaindemotion]

What on earth is strange about being disappointed that a movie doesn't tell the sort of story you want?

It's a little selfish. My favourite race is the Gorn. I want a Gorn story in the movies. It doesn't make sense to a hate a movie for not having the Gorn.

As someone else said, there's a world of difference between being disappointed in and hating something.

I understand people love the Romulans and want to see more of them. But it was never advertised as a Romulan movie. Every single trailer I saw was about Clones and duplicates (Picard's and Data's) so I'm not sure where these expectations could have come from?

I for one followed development of the movie from an early stage on this and other sites. From early on, there was word that this movie would centre on Romulus and that there would be a peace mission to Romulus. Both of which did feature in the movie, yet the Romulans themselves were strangely sidelined. The comparison with the Gorn is completely irrelevant; no-one ever expected them to be in it nor was their home planet central to the movie.

Was it strange when people didn't like Batman and Robin because it was a campfest, when they hoped it would be more of a Dark Knight type story? Was it strange when people didn't like Transformers 2 because they wanted things like plot or character in it?


People didn't hate Batman and Robin because they were hoping for Dark Knight, they hated it for being a bad movie.

Hating something bad for being bad is one thing (Transformers 2). But hating something because it didn't feature the type of story you were hoping for I honestly don't understand.

Again, the only person talking about hate is you. I'm using the word disappointment, I can't honestly remember what DarKush said.

Do people hate Jaws because they were expecting an alien story simply because they like those more?

Again, with respect, this is completely irrelevant (and the word 'hate' continues to be your own, not anyone elses). Jaws has a poster of a huge shark on the front. I'm not sure how anyone would expect aliens from it.

The title of this thread was 'what could have been done to improve Nemesis?' Both DarKush and I think it might have been improved by featuring one of Trek's oldest villains, a race sadly under-used in the movies, rather than a silly bunch of Nosferatu clones. 'Hate' has nothing to do with it, nor does selfishness.

 

[DonIago]

Perhaps the shark was an alien?

...can't imagine when I'll ever get to say something like that again.

 

[sonak]

I think that the problems are largely story-related, and could have been fixable.

Clean up Shinzon's motivations a bit.
Don't have him do stupid self-defeating things like mind-raping Troi.
Find a less contrived way of Picard facing Shinzon than having him say "this is something I have to do" when it makes no sense for a man in his sixties to be facing Shinzon and the Remans alone.

I don't really think it's that bad as it is. It's better than INS at any rate.

 

[Xhiandra]

Getting a costume designer in possession of fully functionning eyeballs.
I mean, it's great that the director wanted to employ some who was clearly sight-impaired, but maybe should it have been in another capacity.

More seriously:
I re-watched Nemesis earlier and I don't see a bad movie.

I liked that it didn't treat viewers as idiots by overexplaining things.
A plot element was introduced once, no more and no lines were wasted essentially repeating what another character just said.
This is refreshing when you've been on a Voyager marathon (especially early Voyager).
Some of those plot points were obvious, others more subtle.
On the converse, those scenes sometimes were too short as a result, you couldn't really get involved with them as the movie had already moved on to something else.

I liked that it attempted to address interesting themes of identity, nature vs nurture, racial oppression, and so on.
On the converse, it didn't explore any of them fully.

I liked that it had a bit of everything: drama, action, humour (Worf's "very astute" line is probably the best chuckle of all Trek movies for me), character scenes, space pew-pew.

I liked the Picard/Shinzon; Data/B4 premise and its execution.

I liked that Shinzon was multifaceted.
He didn't "waste time" mind-raping Deanna, he was just being a young human male; not an avatar of hatred but a strongly movitated being that could still make pause to indulge in curiosity (dinner with Picard) or sexual urges (mindrape).
He's not had much female company in the mines and the female company he's had since his coup has been those romulans he hates too strongly to see in that light (as demonstrated in the Donatra scene), cut him some slack.
The Viceroy was a decent character as well: he clearly cares for Shinzon's wellbeing... moreso than Shinzon himself.

i liked the Scimitar. Badass ship.
Oh, and the Valdore. Pretty ship.

I liked the music. Set the tone in numerous scenes.

I didn't like the excessive close-up shots of everyone at every turn.

I didn't like the under-use of some characters. Beverly, in particular sees little use... she sees little use in all 4 TNG movies, though.
Worf seems to disappear at some point. He's still there in the background, but if it wasn't for the first 15 minutes or so he'd just be an extra.

I didn't like the gratuitous Dei Ex Machinae: the mindrape and Troi reversing it to target the Scimitar, the personal transporter, the conveniently-placed spikes on the Scimitar bridge,...

And as hinted earlier, I really didn't like the Reman's (and by extension Shinzon's) outfits.
They belong in Power Rangers, not Star Trek.


As I said, in my eyes it's not a bad movie... but it is a rushed movie.
Trying to cram too much into 1h40? A director that wanted to be done with it ASAP? A cast that wanted to move on to other projects? i don't know. Maybe a bit of all that.

 

[Trek Survivor]

Perhaps the shark was an alien?

...can't imagine when I'll ever get to say something like that again.

Only if Michael Bay does a remake :-)

 

[Ian Keldon]

Two things I can think of off the top of my head:

1) B4 should have been Lore, stolen by Shinzon from wherever Starfleet had his carcass stashed. This would have set up an obvious sequel down the road.

2) Lose the "clone" angle, and just have Shinzon be a Romulan-raised human with a grudge not against the Federation, but his Romulan oppressors.

Doing that would have made the Federation's actions less self-serving and more altruistic.

 

[DonIago]

I'm now thinking that TPTB missed a real opportunity by not having Romulus be the target of Shinzon's attack and the Enterprise defending a race they've considered neutral-at-best to this point.

It would also make a lot more sense than having Shinzon decide to attack Earth in an apparent fit of pique.

 

[sonak]

I'll third the "having the Enterprise defend the Romulans from Shinzon" would have been a cool plot.

 

[Shane Houston]

I think that the opening scene, or teaser, should not have been killing of the Romulan senate but of the same thing happening to the Federation Council. Make it a mystery in the beginning of trying to find out who was responsible. Then opening credits, the wedding scene and having it be interrupted by a more pissed of Kathryn Janeway informing them of the attack and then ordering the Enterprise to investigate.

Make the story epic in nature. If you're going to include the Romulans then make it an all out war and a fight for the Enterprise and Starfleet to destroy the Thaleron weapon. The man behind it all could still be a Picard clone but lose the Remans. The great part of what made Balance of Terror great when the Romulans are introduced is that it was about a Commander who was more like Kirk, just on the opposite side of the lined crossed between they're government. Donatra could have been better used if she had started out disagreeing with Shinzon instead of her only switching sides because of her rejected seduction. Or hell do what they did in the novel universe and make her a sympathetic character related in some way to Spock. Nimoy would have appeared as long as Spock had a good story line.

No dune buggies or Data clones needed. No rape scenes needed. No Sela because the average fan won't know her. Dare to do something bold like destroying Vulcan by a Thaleron weapon by Shinzon and have the shock of Picard and crew realizing that this war started because of a human would have been more dramatic.

 

[Stewey]

One of my main problem with Nemesis was that after all those years of character development for Worf on DS9 to turn him in a credible 3-dimensional character, they go and turn him into a bafoon. Using his character as the federation ambassidor to the klingons may have opened up story opportinuties that could have enhanced the film.

 

[JarodRussell]

* either erase B4 from the story, or at least replace him with Lore. It's Lore who makes the sacrifice, as the climax of his character arc, not Data. But rather remove the double Data completely.
* put the wedding at the end, as payoff, and not as the typical TNG film "the heroes do a totally random thing before they are called on a mission" intro. Let Riker and Troi actually make the decision to marry within the film, and not as a mysterious off-screen decision between two films.
* Patrick Stewart as Shinzon
* change the focus of the story to the Romulan clone infiltration program: have an actual Starfleet official be a clone who needs to be unmasked
* let that clone in Starfleet be the Captain of the USS Titan
* final space battle and weapon deployment in Earth orbit, not some random nebula
* have Worf show some skill. Finally a well choreographed, well thought out close combat with martial arts and weapons would have been something.
* have a personal meeting between Picard and Janeway when he gets his orders
* have some reminder of the events of All Good Things, and that they know of a possible future: Deanna dies, and Worf and Riker will hate each other. And resolve it with Worf saving Deanna in a very dangerous situation, when Riker is prevented from doing so.
* either make the "it's the final mission" theme more definitive, or leave it out completely.
* change the film theme from "everyone's tired and sad and melancholic" so something upbeat and positive

* remove that shitty Shinzon wants to rape Deanna subplot

* give Ron Perlman something better to do

* the movie lacks at least one key moment for every character. Why is Geordi such a great chief engineer? Why is Worf such a great warrior? Why is Riker such a great First Officer and Captain? Etc, etc...

* motivate Jerry Goldsmith to do a better score. Baird told him to make the score sound sad and downbeat. Holy shit, dude. It's Star Trek, possibly the final film of the TNG cast, make it go out in a blaze of glory.

* replace Baird and Logan with other people.

 

[DonIago]

What do you mean with regards to Lore's character arc? I don't see him as the type to place anyone else over himself, and any claim of having feelings for Data always struck me as more self-serving than anything else.

 

[sonak]

I think he did care for Data a little bit. He spared him in "Brothers" and seemed to want him by his side in "Descent."

 

[JarodRussell]

That's the way I see it. Ultimately, Lore cared for Data. So it would be something to see him sacrifice himself in order to save Data at some point.

But yeah, I'd rather remove the whole double Data subplot. It would have been enough to have a clone of Picard.



Maybe an intro that shows Picard growing up, getting to Starfleet Academy, becoming the man he is, and then flashbacks to Shinzon growing up to become the man he is, throughout the film, could have been nice as well. I'm a fan of "show, don't tell".