Hypothetically... could "Phase II" have ever been a success?
- Thread starter Lance
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Obviously, Data and Riker were heavily influenced by Xon and Decker. And in some ways, at least as I see it, Picard was sort of an aged Kirk, more seasoned and less brash (it is often implied Picard was more Kirk like in his youth).
I think likeability would really have come down to how the actors portrayed their characters. I liked Decker in TMP, and always kind of felt a little sorry for him when Kirk yanked his command. Had we seen a series with him in it, I think it would have been interesting...especially if the apocrypha of him being the son of Commodore Decker were incorporated.
As for Xon, I am not familiar with that actor, so I am not sure if Xon would have been pulled off to be as likeable as what Data ended up being, or not. Personally, I am glad they went the android route.
That all said, if there ever were a return of Star Trek to TV, and they insisted it being based in the Abramsverse...a refitted Enterprise, with Decker as Captain, Xon, and Illya, and occasional guest appearances by Admiral Kirk (Pine, or recast), and Ambassador Spock (Quinto, or recast), would be kind of awesome, I think. It truly would be Star Trek "The NEXT Generation."
Yeah, I really do think Star Trek Phase II would have been a lot like those shows, at least in feel. Even TNG in the first season, still felt SOME effects of that campy influence of the late 1970s sci fi TV.
That's as dubious a conclusion as insisting the original Trek would be silly and campy because of Lost in Space and Batman.
Happy Meals originated with ST:TMP.
I'm not saying it would be exactly the same...but certainly for TOS the color/production schemes were similar to those two shows (the colors in costumers of Batman and the "outdoor" scenes of Lost in Space.)
When TNG came out, i felt like the War of the Worlds (which came on right next to TNG in my area of Chicago) had a similar tone (mix of humor, action, and "sci fi history").
And Stargate Universe taking a lot of stylistic cues from nuBSG, in today's world.
To match those contemporary shows, Phase II would have been expensive, and perhaps have limited the show's run (like it did for BSG). The shows in that era generally didn't last long (definitely not the "7 year Trek standard)
Happy Meals originated with ST:TMP.[/QUOTE]
Hmm....so maybe Phase II would have left out that powerful marketing piece, and Phase II might not have been as helpful for Trek....
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^^^Can you edit your post so your reply doesn't appear to be what I wrote?
You were absolutely definitive in your original statement. WOULD HAVE isn't the same as MIGHT HAVE.
You were absolutely definitive in your original statement. WOULD HAVE isn't the same as MIGHT HAVE.
Sorry about that -- edited it!
Buck Rogers and BSG had SOME level of seriousness to it, but not like TNG, but pretty close to TOS. But if Phase II remained at that level, i think it would have been hard for Trek to acheive the success that the movies provided. The timing just wasn't right for a successful series (at least one that went 7 seasons, 3 times in a row)
I agree with the rest of the thread's consensus that replacing Spock with Xon would have eventually killed the series (and most any chance for a spinoff or movie for the next several decades.)
But one thing I think they did *right* was Ilia. Persis Khambatta was IMO a much better actress than Marina Sirtis, and could pull off the "exotic alien" type in a much better way. That and, I'm not sure if TNG's writers ever had a good idea what a "ship's counselor" was supposed to do. After seven years, Troi ended up seeming to me pretty much like "Female Frazier in Space." Ilia as Navigator seemed to fit in much better as a starship officer.
I wonder what would have happened if they'd kept Deltan hypersexuality as a central character trait. It was presented as an important aspect of Ilia's character -- but pretty much dropped when she was retooled as Troi.
But one thing I think they did *right* was Ilia. Persis Khambatta was IMO a much better actress than Marina Sirtis, and could pull off the "exotic alien" type in a much better way. That and, I'm not sure if TNG's writers ever had a good idea what a "ship's counselor" was supposed to do. After seven years, Troi ended up seeming to me pretty much like "Female Frazier in Space." Ilia as Navigator seemed to fit in much better as a starship officer.
I wonder what would have happened if they'd kept Deltan hypersexuality as a central character trait. It was presented as an important aspect of Ilia's character -- but pretty much dropped when she was retooled as Troi.
I have to agree with Morpheus here. Saying a Phase II series from the late 1970s would have had a similar feel to sci fi TV shows that were of the same era, is a totally valid opinion. You know, hypothetically speaking, just like the name of this thread. This is all speculation and opinion, after all. I don't think a Phase 2 would literally feel exactly like Buck Rogers, Space 1999, or BSG, etc. Just the general feel that was prevalent in the mid-late 1970s sci fi TV, or TV in general. When I say its feel would be a blending of those shows, TMP, and early TNG season 1, I mean as a general frame of reference.
But, IMHO, I doubt Phase II would have been silly like Buck Rogers was, sometimes. I think Phase II probably would have felt more like the more serious moments of BSG and BR that modern audiences interpret as campy, but with more a Roddenberry flavor to it, rather than Glenn A Larson's. Hard to describe, but essentially Season 1 of TNG filmed 10 years earlier having a less theatrical feel of TMP, more TV production feel.
I agree pretty much with everything you said here.
As for Illia,I doubt the hypersexuality would have gotten past the TV censors, and I tyhink it probably would have been downgraded to telepathy\empathy similar to Troi. But the idea of Persis Khambatta as Troi is very intriguing. Very sad she died so young.
I had long felt that rather than being a ships councilor, Troi should have been a diplomat (specializing in First Contact situations) or linguistics officer (maybe both?), due to her telepathic abilities. That is what she essentially was for the most part, anyway. The ships psychologist trope was useless.
Basically I see a lot of assumptions here presented as probability with so little fact.
From the outside looking in Phase II looked a bit sloppy. We probably would have gotten used to the Phase II refit design, but I don't think it looks as nice as the TMP refit. The TOS era style uniforms might still have worked, but a lot depends on what the final sets would have looked like.
Two big problems that stand out (for me). The fourth network idea was before its time and hinging a lot of its success on Phase II would have been added pressure the series didn't need. They would have been better off to try syndicating the show, as they did with TNG a decade later. The other problem (as mentioned earlier upthread) was a lot of the planned stories don't come across very well.
Now that said a lot of TOS stories don't seem like much in outline form, but they were massaged into something workable. It's possible more than a few stories planned for Phase II could have been salvaged into somthing acceptable.
Like everything it's all in execution. If Decker and Xon were eventually written and portrayed well enough they might have proven a draw for the series. And who knows, Shatner might have been convinced to be more involved and maybe even Nimoy could have been enticed back.
Part of what hurt Phase II is Paramount couldn't decide what the hell it wanted: series or feature film. I think this hurt the preparation and production of the series as well as the eventual production of TMP. We know TMP was unfairly saddled with Phase II's production costs. We might have all been better served if they had decided firmly one way or another. Certainly TMP would have been spared having to rebuild new sets, new miniatures and new costumes if they'd gone with a feature film from the get-go.
Another problem I see is their frustrating search for a "big" story to launch the series or film. They wanted something epic and yet no one could decide on what it had to be. If it was for television it just needed to be a good story well told and not necessarily epic. Neither "The Cage" nor "Where No Man Has Gone Before" were epic, but they were good stories and well told. In TNG they tried for something bgger with "Encounter At Farpoint" and it's a messy affair. Of course that wasn't originally Roddenberry's plan. Apparently he wanted the Farpoint story told within an hour episode, but Paramount wanted something "bigger" so the Q elements were shoehorned in. End result is a stupid A/B plot structure that doesn't really merge well, two stories that don't really belong together.
As has been said upthread we eventually did get Phase II in the form of TNG. It is interesting that quite a few early season (1 and 2) stories do have something of a TOS vibe to them, but would this still have happened if Phase II had been done a decade earlier? While I resisted TNG early on in retrospect I think it was the smart thing to do to start with a largely cleen sheet and let the show stand on its own. Yes, it was compared to TOS anyway, but more time had passed and people might have been more forgiving than if the TNG formula had been tried with the original TOS cast.
We will never know.
I'm intrigued by a different road not taken. If TMP's story and script had been fleshed out more we could have had a different film. It is still one of the most finiancially succesful of the films, but with some rewriting and addition of more character drama it could have been better received. Also add in a bit more colour. And in that event the followup film (STII) might have been different.
But, we will never know.
From the outside looking in Phase II looked a bit sloppy. We probably would have gotten used to the Phase II refit design, but I don't think it looks as nice as the TMP refit. The TOS era style uniforms might still have worked, but a lot depends on what the final sets would have looked like.
Two big problems that stand out (for me). The fourth network idea was before its time and hinging a lot of its success on Phase II would have been added pressure the series didn't need. They would have been better off to try syndicating the show, as they did with TNG a decade later. The other problem (as mentioned earlier upthread) was a lot of the planned stories don't come across very well.
Now that said a lot of TOS stories don't seem like much in outline form, but they were massaged into something workable. It's possible more than a few stories planned for Phase II could have been salvaged into somthing acceptable.
Like everything it's all in execution. If Decker and Xon were eventually written and portrayed well enough they might have proven a draw for the series. And who knows, Shatner might have been convinced to be more involved and maybe even Nimoy could have been enticed back.
Part of what hurt Phase II is Paramount couldn't decide what the hell it wanted: series or feature film. I think this hurt the preparation and production of the series as well as the eventual production of TMP. We know TMP was unfairly saddled with Phase II's production costs. We might have all been better served if they had decided firmly one way or another. Certainly TMP would have been spared having to rebuild new sets, new miniatures and new costumes if they'd gone with a feature film from the get-go.
Another problem I see is their frustrating search for a "big" story to launch the series or film. They wanted something epic and yet no one could decide on what it had to be. If it was for television it just needed to be a good story well told and not necessarily epic. Neither "The Cage" nor "Where No Man Has Gone Before" were epic, but they were good stories and well told. In TNG they tried for something bgger with "Encounter At Farpoint" and it's a messy affair. Of course that wasn't originally Roddenberry's plan. Apparently he wanted the Farpoint story told within an hour episode, but Paramount wanted something "bigger" so the Q elements were shoehorned in. End result is a stupid A/B plot structure that doesn't really merge well, two stories that don't really belong together.
As has been said upthread we eventually did get Phase II in the form of TNG. It is interesting that quite a few early season (1 and 2) stories do have something of a TOS vibe to them, but would this still have happened if Phase II had been done a decade earlier? While I resisted TNG early on in retrospect I think it was the smart thing to do to start with a largely cleen sheet and let the show stand on its own. Yes, it was compared to TOS anyway, but more time had passed and people might have been more forgiving than if the TNG formula had been tried with the original TOS cast.
We will never know.
I'm intrigued by a different road not taken. If TMP's story and script had been fleshed out more we could have had a different film. It is still one of the most finiancially succesful of the films, but with some rewriting and addition of more character drama it could have been better received. Also add in a bit more colour. And in that event the followup film (STII) might have been different.
But, we will never know.
We need to keep in mind that the scripts and story ideas we've seen for Phase II are probably a lot rougher than what eventually would have aired. I don't know how far along in writing and rewriting they were before they shifted over to TMP.
As I understand it the final decision to go forward with TMP was made quite some time before they actually told the Phase II production crew to stop working. I think GR also already knew of that decision quite some time before everyone else found out and yet they kept them working anyway.That means they were working to prepare for a series that was already dead in the water. They continued to spend money for nothing. 
Well, not really -- the TNG season two episode Manhunt goes to great pains to elaborate on Betazoid hypersexuality (albeit only *after* a certain age), and I've stated my own theorizing on the subject of when Troi underwent this elsewhere before on this BBS ( http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=232894 ).
I admit that on paper Ilia was certainly more overt with it, but how much of that would have actually reached the screen is anyone's guess. Certainly the 13 episodes that got scripted didn't do squat with the concept.
The TMP budget was inflated because the cost for developing and producing the series (then aborted) were later tagged onto TMP. A lot of the sets and miniatures were indeed redesigned and rebuilt and the costumes were changed.
TMP's budget is claimed to be at least 80 million or more, but when you subtract the Phase II costs tagged onto it it drops to a lot more reasonable 45-50 million or so, which was still big money in those days.
This all lies at the feet of the Paramount suits who couldn't decide what the hell they wanted to do.
All said TMP was and remains one of the most financially successful of the Trek films. Adjusted for inflation it's near the top in returns.
On another note some upthread have stated they wouldn't have wanted to see a Ralph McQuarrie style Enterprise. We wouldn't have because by the time Phase II was in production the ship's design had already been finalized into something approximating the refit.
TMP's budget is claimed to be at least 80 million or more, but when you subtract the Phase II costs tagged onto it it drops to a lot more reasonable 45-50 million or so, which was still big money in those days.
This all lies at the feet of the Paramount suits who couldn't decide what the hell they wanted to do.
All said TMP was and remains one of the most financially successful of the Trek films. Adjusted for inflation it's near the top in returns.
On another note some upthread have stated they wouldn't have wanted to see a Ralph McQuarrie style Enterprise. We wouldn't have because by the time Phase II was in production the ship's design had already been finalized into something approximating the refit.
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^^^TMP's official budget was in the 45 million range. There's no way the Phase II and other aborted Trek projects amounted to tens of millions.
The film had an official budget (which it blew through, and blew out again in post) and the earlier projects were added to that as the total cost to Paramount for bringing Star Trek back.
If you are trying to remodel a house and do an addition, if you pay architects for plans and proposals and you pay for permits, and you pay to start construction, but as you go you change the plans, and tear down some partial construction, all that money is still going to the same project and you're going to count it as such. TMP wasn't just TMP, it was the completed product of a plan to bring Star Trek back.
The film had an official budget (which it blew through, and blew out again in post) and the earlier projects were added to that as the total cost to Paramount for bringing Star Trek back.
If you are trying to remodel a house and do an addition, if you pay architects for plans and proposals and you pay for permits, and you pay to start construction, but as you go you change the plans, and tear down some partial construction, all that money is still going to the same project and you're going to count it as such. TMP wasn't just TMP, it was the completed product of a plan to bring Star Trek back.
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