Hypothetically... could "Phase II" have ever been a success?

[Lance]

Let's have a good discussion about this.

In their seminal book on the subject of this legendary 'lost series', Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens make the case that Phase II's failure to launch was arguably for the greater benefit of the franchise, for a number of reasons:


1) Because it might have been a still-born series, and if it *was* cancelled after only 13 episodes it would've been the Star Trek franchise's "last chance", the final nail in the coffin for a show that had already been given so many second chances. The possibility of a third attempt would've been remote.

2) Tying into the above, a TV series would have precluded the theatrical movies as we knew them, which might likewise have precluded the spin-off shows that came about as a direct result of the movies being such a success. Even if Phase II had've prospered for a full 5+ year run, it would have resulted in a very different narrative of events. No 'Next Generation', no 'Deep Space' and no 'Voyager'.

3) A third possibility, that the whole conception of the show as a tentpole for a mooted Paramount network could have meant that even if the show was well received, if the 'great experiment' of Paramount Television failed, even despite Star Trek's success, then Star Trek could have crashed and burnt with it.


Personally, while I do see their point-of-view, I also think it does rather hedge upon looking at the worst case scenario rather than the best case.

Undoubtedly, Star Trek as we know it today, possibly even the Star Trek phenomenon, might not have been as strong without events going exactly the way they did. Perhaps Phase II as a sequel series would've been too different to TOS to catch on, or it would've been too soon to take the franchise in new directions, or it might've been too *much* like TOS to truly create its own identity as TNG later was able to.

All of these are factors in this hypothetical.

On the other hand, the TNG template effectively *was* Phase II by proxy, with its more ensemble focus and blatant reuse of character templates. And it *was* a success, proof that rejigging the format of TOS in this way, even in 1977, might have proven beneficial. A gamble for sure, but *potentially* a winning gamble, so long as enough of the audience at home were able to go along with it.

There's a wild card here: the lack of Mister Spock. Without doubt, one of the biggest factors for TOS's success is that the Spock character 'caught on' with the viewers at home. The format was interesting in itself, but it was this "guy with the pointed ears" who everybody was (forgive the pun) fascinated by. And he was never a factor in Phase II at any stage of its life. Spock didn't even come back into the picture until Phase II had been shut down and production shifted to Star Trek: The Motion Picture, whereafter Bob Wise famously came in and made a deal to get Nimoy back on board. Xon was a potentially interesting replacement, and his actor seems to have been very thorough from what I've seen of him in interviews and such, but it's just *possible* that Xon would be seen as an interloper by the hardcore Spock fans, and as a suspiciously similar substitute by the more casual viewers. He had a *lot* of hurdles to jump over, and it's debatable whether he would've been able to overcome those obstabcles. The entire rest of the TOS cast of characters being there (unlike TNG, where the entire cast were new) would only have underlined for many people the startling lack of Spock in Phase II, no matter how much the scripts did to make Xon a likeable alternative.

What do you guys think? Do you reckon Phase II could've taken off? Or do you think, ultimately, it was for the best that it never happened?

 

[I am not Spock]

Probably for the best that it never happened, for the overall future success of the franchise for fifty years.

Of course, it kind of did happen, at least in the fan series New Voyages/Phase 2, which uses several of the scripts from the proposed Phase 2 series. And it has both Spock AND Xon

 

[Hober Mallow]

Of course it could have been hypothetically a success. Anything can happen hypothetically. That's what hypothetically means.

What do you guys think? Do you reckon Phase II could've taken off? Or do you think, ultimately, it was for the best that it never happened?

It's tough to say, but I think it was probably best to let Trek stew for a while in the public consciousness with old reruns and the occasional theatrical reunion before returning to TV in a new form.

 

[BigJake]

It was for the best that Phase II happened in the form of TNG.

This is not because of any of the various unknowables surrounding whether the show would have continued or folded, the fate of the Paramount Network concept or anything else. Playing armchair network exec (or armchair bean counter) doesn't hold much interest for me.

From my standpoint as a viewer, that the concept happened as TNG -- with an entirely new crew and set in a different era -- was creatively and as entertainment probably the better outcome. Phase II as conceived involved changes to Kirk's character and command style that made a lot more sense when put in context of a completely new character. Data was a vastly better interpretation of the next "logical character" than having Xon as essentially Spock Mk. II. Having the rest of the old crew back would have been agreeable, but the idea of having a Klingon officer wouldn't have fit the original concept as it did TNG and we would've missed out on Worf, which would have been a considerable loss. And most of all, it would have been harder for Phase II to grow into its own identity, as TNG later managed to do.

 

[Nebusj]

What do you guys think? Do you reckon Phase II could've taken off? Or do you think, ultimately, it was for the best that it never happened?

I doubt it would have taken off. The scripts as we've seen them were just too weak, and the show setup, kind of weirdly, different enough from the Original Trek to be annoying but not different enough to be original. It'd be an oddity, kind of like the attempt at resurrecting Laugh-In in 1979 or of making a spinoff of Bewitched in 1977 or (for a later example) 704 Hauser.

If it had succeeded, though, that might have even been worse for Trek in the long term: it would have crystallized the idea that it's the Original Cast which is important, instead of that it's the world and the idea of an interesting team of explorer-adventurers in a wide-ranging galaxy of many species, many cultures, and many kinds of life.

Deep Space Nine and Voyager and Enterprise may not have been beloved by the public, but they did represent expansions on the Trek universe in a way that grinding out several more seasons of the Original Series couldn't.

 

[Commishsleer]

I wouldn't be a fan of Star Trek now if they replaced Spock with Xon.
That may not be fair but its just the way it is.

I just might be doing something productive now instead of posting here.

 

[Gotham Central]

At a very basic level, I think that Trek benefitted immensely from the collapse of Phase II.

The franchise got A LOT of benefit materially from the motion pictures. The elaborate nature of TNG's standing sets was largely due to the nearly no expense spared nature of the sets built for TMP. The models built for the movies were also extensively reused. Thus, visually, much of the polished look that we take for granted in later Trek was due to the fact that it was built on the skeleton of movies. In fact, all of the later shows had their sets and effect made to movie level quality because it was assumed that they might be needed for films.

Phase II would have diminished all of that. Looking at some of the test footage of the show it would have looked terrible compared to what came later.

 

[BigJake]

At a very basic level, I think that Trek benefitted immensely from the collapse of Phase II.

The franchise got A LOT of benefit materially from the motion pictures. The elaborate nature of TNG's standing sets was largely due to the nearly no expense spared nature of the sets built for TMP.

This hadn't occurred to me, but it's an excellent point.

 

[USS Triumphant]

My take on it is that if Phase II had gone through, regardless of it's relative level of success or failure, it would have been over by 1985. The upside for the actors would have been that by the early 80s, being typecast seemed to be reduced as a factor in considering actors, and actors were getting better at networking to get roles for people they previously worked with on new shows they got attached to. So if the show had had any success at all, the actors could and would have more successfully gone on to other roles afterward. There would have been no TNG - ENT. No movie franchise (so far). And we'd have seen a nuBSG/nuTrek style reboot of the series as a TV show by now.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I suspect Star Trek: Phase II might have turned out something like Space: 1999 and been the end of the road.

That said, I plan to grab the DVD box set should I ever find myself in an alternate reality.


On the plus side, TOS uniforms on TMP(-ish) sets would have looked cool.

 

[Avro Arrow]

That said, I plan to grab the DVD box set should I ever find myself in an alternate reality.

Yes, definitely, except I think I'll go with the Blu-Ray.

(Although, with my luck, that'll be the reality where HD-DVD won the format war...)

 

[Push The Button]

I suspect Star Trek: Phase II might have turned out something like Space: 1999 and been the end of the road.

That said, I plan to grab the DVD box set should I ever find myself in an alternate reality.


On the plus side, TOS uniforms on TMP(-ish) sets would have looked cool.

I thought it was a nice touch that JJ brought TOS-style uniforms into the new movies.

As for Phase II, I agree that it probably would have brought the Trek phenomenon to a premature end, and we never would have had TNG, DS9, Voyager or Enterprise.

 

[TheSubCommander]

Personally, I am glad things played out the way they did with the TOS movies.

I think the overall feel of a Star trek Phase II might have felt like a blending of TMP, Season 1 of TNG and with the cheese of the mid-late 1970s Sci Fi TV shows like Space 1999 and Buck Rogers.

But as bad as TNG's first seasons FX seem now, the FX quality of a Star Trek Phase II circa 1978 would have been magnitudes worse. People may have accepted Decker as first officer, but I don't they would have accepted Xon. Most of all, I remember clearly the backlash the Enterprise D got when it debuted. Had Phase II rolled out with the McQuarrie Enterprise, I think it would have been even more of a backlash.

In the end, I think a Phase II would have flopped because I don't think the world was ready yet for another Trek Series at that time. It was ready for TMP, however, but what helped it the most was the FX, and most importantly, it had Spock.

 

[Push The Button]

But as bad as TNG's first seasons FX seem now, the FX quality of a Star Trek Phase II circa 1978 would have been magnitudes worse. People may have accepted Decker as first officer, but I don't they would have accepted Xon. Most of all, I remember clearly the backlash the Enterprise D got when it debuted. Had Phase II rolled out with the McQuarrie Enterprise, I think it would have been even more of a backlash.

Was that the one with the huge triangle-shaped secondary hull?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The elephant in the room of Phase II would have been no Spock. Given what the first season of TNG looked like, and extrapolating backwards without the benefit of movie Trek, I think we would have been in for a rough ride and quite possibly quick cancellation.

 

[TheSubCommander]

But as bad as TNG's first seasons FX seem now, the FX quality of a Star Trek Phase II circa 1978 would have been magnitudes worse. People may have accepted Decker as first officer, but I don't they would have accepted Xon. Most of all, I remember clearly the backlash the Enterprise D got when it debuted. Had Phase II rolled out with the McQuarrie Enterprise, I think it would have been even more of a backlash.

Was that the one with the huge triangle-shaped secondary hull?

yeah it was like a proto-galaxy class looking ship.

The elephant in the room of Phase II would have been no Spock. Given what the first season of TNG looked like, and extrapolating backwards without the benefit of movie Trek, I think we would have been in for a rough ride and quite possibly quick cancellation.

I agree. Space 1999 and Buck Rogers barely lasted 2 seasons. Battlestar Galactica lasted 2 seasons if you count Galactica 1980. Considering I think the backlash Phase II might have received might have been at least on par with TNG Season 1, I don't see how Phase 2 could have lasted more than 1 season.

 

[Maurice]

Not this again. Let me make this clear...

MCQUARRIE'S ENTERPRISE WAS CONCEPT ART FOR THE PHIL KAUFMAN FILM (AKA PLANET OF THE TITANS), AND NOT AND NEVER WAS FOR PHASE II.

Ahem.

The TMP refit is a souped up version of the ship Jefferies designed for Phase II.

I've read a number of the Phase II scripts and Xon reads as a perfectly likable character and very not-Spock.

At least some of the VFX for Phase II might've been accomplished using the Magicam system, as demonstrated in Cosmos and in the George Pal War of the Worlds series tests, and if the elements had been shot and composited on video there mightn't have been to way to "remaster" for improved TVs down the line, but the technique certainly could have opened up the scope of the show.

War of the Worlds Magicam tests.

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[BigJake]

I've read a number of the Phase II scripts and Xon reads as a perfectly likable character and very not-Spock.

The character concept was perfectly likeable -- an inverse of Spock, the "logical" mind trying to understand and assimilate to humanity rather than trying to suppress humanity -- but especially in the presence of the rest of the original cast, comparisons to Spock and the glaring absence of Nimoy probably would have cast a shadow. Besides, the idea was likely much better served in its TNG form -- I wonder if this happened before or after somebody noticed the possibilities of a Pinocchio analogy -- by dropping the Vulcan heritage and making him an android.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I would've liked to see Phase II--going by the "Making of" book that I have they could've given it a damn good go.

I'd liked to have seen more development of Decker (especially since he'd be the young buck onboard, which Kirk wouldn't like) and Ilia. Spock was never my favourite character, so having Xon step is wouldn't be a bad thing in my eyes.

 

[Morpheus 02]

Personally, I am glad things played out the way they did with the TOS movies.

I think the overall feel of a Star trek Phase II might have felt like a blending of TMP, Season 1 of TNG and with the cheese of the mid-late 1970s Sci Fi TV shows like Space 1999 and Buck Rogers.

But as bad as TNG's first seasons FX seem now, the FX quality of a Star Trek Phase II circa 1978 would have been magnitudes worse. People may have accepted Decker as first officer, but I don't they would have accepted Xon. Most of all, I remember clearly the backlash the Enterprise D got when it debuted. Had Phase II rolled out with the McQuarrie Enterprise, I think it would have been even more of a backlash.

In the end, I think a Phase II would have flopped because I don't think the world was ready yet for another Trek Series at that time. It was ready for TMP, however, but what helped it the most was the FX, and most importantly, it had Spock.

Definitely agree with the special effects argument.

Also, the popular sci-fi at the time was kinda campy (like Buck Rogers and much of BSG), so Trek would have sunk to those levels, and not have been as good as the previous series.

Also -- would they have been able to make those Trek Happy Meals? Those things may have held some seeds for future Trek popularity. They didn't base Happy Meals on TV shows back then, did they?