How would you change the show?

[Anwar]

Then don't make a show about it.

Voyager is ok, middlin',, entertainment without the framing device. But no excuse making makes up for ignoring what was set up.

You start off with that plot and then drop it in favor of something else, but you make sure you know what that something else will be before you start the show so you know what form the reinvention is to take.

VOY's problem was that it never knew when to reinvent or what to reinvent itself as, probably due to UPN interference and lack of consistent leadership. Rick Berman wanted to wait till DS9 was done and hire a wholly new writing staff to do VOY but was overruled.

 

[fireproof78]

You start off with that plot and then drop it in favor of something else, but you make sure you know what that something else will be before you start the show so you know what form the reinvention is to take.

Yes,with good writing, yes.

 

[Summer Solstice]

Anyhow, SGU failed because it went dark and people don't watch Stargate for dark.

I think SGU failed because it was marketed as Stargate - it was more like a totally different style of sci-fi show that required no prior knowledge of the stargates and just happened to have some stargates in it.

Say what you want about all these other shows, Voyager is the one that I watched to the end and that I love to rewatch.

 

[Oddish]

Which is hilarious because Janeway also struggles with field commissions for Maquis personnel because it would be unfair to the Starfleet officers.

I've observed unfairness of the exact opposite type:

 

[Ragitsu]

Maquis diplomacy, mofo!

Despite the fleeting friction they had to endure during their first year of Tour de Delta, Janeway and Chakotay were always on the same page when it came to pugilistic persuasion.

 

[Jonesy]

Then don't make a show about it.

Voyager is ok, middlin',, entertainment without the framing device. But no excuse making makes up for ignoring what was set up.

Thank you Fireproof. That was exactly my point. But the concept of Voyager essentially abandoning its premise, and the discussions around it, are nothing new.

 

[suarezguy]

What if in Season 2 Paris *had* pursued Kes and she chose him over Neelix? Could he and Neelix have still become friends? Or could it have worked happening for real in Season 3?

 

[Oddish]

I'm not sure any pairing with Kes and a non-Ocampa would have worked, simply due to the chronological elephant in the room.

 

[Summer Solstice]

What if in Season 2 Paris *had* pursued Kes and she chose him over Neelix? Could he and Neelix have still become friends? Or could it have worked happening for real in Season 3?

I think eventually Neelix would have become friends with Paris. In "Before And After" there didn't seem to be any animosity between them at Kes' 9th birthday party.

 

[Anwar]

I'm not sure any pairing with Kes and a non-Ocampa would have worked, simply due to the chronological elephant in the room.

Eh, I'm sure they'd have come up with some explanation for her aging to halt as a young woman. Probably to do with her emerging psionic abilities.

But really, Kes should have been played by multiple actresses in the first 3 seasons or so. Start her off as like a 10 year old, then 1 year later she's a teen and then by Season 3 she's a young woman in her 20s (physically) and her aging gets halted by whatever.

 

[Oddish]

Eh, I'm sure they'd have come up with some explanation for her aging to halt as a young woman. Probably to do with her emerging psionic abilities.

Her physical age wasn't the issue... the fact that she was so young chronologically was. In our culture, is a girl is 17 and looks 27... she's still 17, and protected by law.

 

[Anwar]

Her physical age wasn't the issue... the fact that she was so young chronologically was. In our culture, is a girl is 17 and looks 27... she's still 17, and protected by law.

Yeah, I know. The whole romance thing between her and...anyone really...was really questionable.

It got even worse when we saw her future visions where she has a child with Tom, that child grows up accelerated and ends up with...Harry. Who'd known her since she was born.

 

[Oddish]

It got even worse when we saw her future visions where she has a child with Tom, that child grows up accelerated and ends up with...Harry. Who'd known her since she was born.

Probably babysat her when Tom and Kes went off to the holodeck for a romantic evening.

On a more serious note, given that the Ocampan lifespan seems to be dominant, that would be tough for Harry and Tom both... they'll be burying their kids before they're 40.

Maybe Linnis and Andrew's human blood bought them extra time, in the AU where they existed.

A story from Harry's perspective would be interesting. I know he's an honorable man, and the notion of marrying a person he was feeding a bottle two or three years ago would have been... difficult.

 

[JR TREK]

Eh, I'm sure they'd have come up with some explanation for her aging to halt as a young woman. Probably to do with her emerging psionic abilities.

But really, Kes should have been played by multiple actresses in the first 3 seasons or so. Start her off as like a 10 year old, then 1 year later she's a teen and then by Season 3 she's a young woman in her 20s (physically) and her aging gets halted by whatever.

That would make her relationship with Neelix in the first episode pretty awkward. Been a while since I've watched it, but IIRC Neelix didn't bother to tell Janeway that he was rescuing his girlfriend/lover. Imagine if Kes was a child - what exactly is her relationship with Neelix again? Well it's probably "child sex slave," isn't it?

Her physical age wasn't the issue... the fact that she was so young chronologically was. In our culture, is a girl is 17 and looks 27... she's still 17, and protected by law.

"Our" culture, but that's a criticism of Islam and is punishable by death.

Talaxians were always presented as a "good" race, but what if they had the little quirk of permitting child brides? There are human cultures where buying little girls for wives/sex slaves is normal.

 

[Oddish]

There are human cultures where buying little girls for wives/sex slaves is normal.

And where hiding behind a woman or child is perfectly acceptable combat tactics. And since these cultures seem to be one and the same, rooting their practitioners out is... problematic. Especially for those of us who don't have a very particular set of skills.

On Voyager, it wasn't just Neelix, though. In an alternate reality, Tom and Harry were doing the same, and they're human (the ultimate "good" Trek race). And one wonders, if that timeline had played itself out, if a female crew member might have hooked up with Andrew in a few years.

 

[JR TREK]

I'm sorry, I don't remember the alternate timeline story. No idea who Andrew is.

It wouldn't surprise me if Trek was trying to work in some acceptance of "minor attracted persons." I could argue that Kes is an adult woman of her race, but maybe that misses the intent of the writers and she should be understood as a literal 2-3 year old child. You know, "read between the lines."

I vaguely remember an episode of Next Gen with Lwaxana Troi and a young boy that was a bit iffy in places.

 

[Anwar]

I'm sorry, I don't remember the alternate timeline story. No idea who Andrew is.

It wouldn't surprise me if Trek was trying to work in some acceptance of "minor attracted persons." I could argue that Kes is an adult woman of her race, but maybe that misses the intent of the writers and she should be understood as a literal 2-3 year old child. You know, "read between the lines."

I vaguely remember an episode of Next Gen with Lwaxana Troi and a young boy that was a bit iffy in places.

There was a story where Kes was phasing through time and saw a future where she married Tom and had kids. One of them, a daughter, aged to adulthood in a few years and ended up married to Harry Kim. They had a rapidly aging son too approaching adulthood.

I didn't realize how sketchy that was as a kid.

 

[JR TREK]

In a few years we're going to be looking back at all the old media and those who haven't figured it out yet will be shocked at the real meaning.

 

[Oddish]

It wouldn't surprise me if Trek was trying to work in some acceptance of "minor attracted persons."

No... physically, Kes was just as adult as Neelix was. The issue was her chronological age. She's kind of an extreme version of the young person who looks like she's in her twenties but is really in her teens. It's not abnormal or wrong to notice such a person... but it's definitely wrong to act on it, if you know their actual age.

We might know intellectually that Kes is physically and mentally an adult and that she'll be dead long before reaching our traditional age of consent... but on a more instinctive level, it seems wrong.

I vaguely remember an episode of Next Gen with Lwaxana Troi and a young boy that was a bit iffy in places.

Yeah... the mud baths. As a culture, Betazoids are kind of blasé about nudity. At a typical Betazoid wedding, it's not just the bride who's naked... so is everyone else.

Again, we see the scene through the lens of our far more modest culture. A culture where communal bathing is normal would see it differently.

I didn't realize how sketchy that was as a kid.

And it's in our nature to see it that way. That's what I called Kes's age "the chronological elephant in the room".

I think the idea was that the crew of Voyager were supposed to be enlightened enough that they could see past the limits imposed by human culture... problem is, as the audience, we can't (and as someone who's in the business of keeping children safe, I say that's a good thing). And that's why I agree with the initial notion: deleting the Kes/Neelix relationship would have been a positive for both characters, and VOY as a whole. Tom and B'Elanna had their issues, but they were a far better flagship romance for the show.

In a few years we're going to be looking back at all the old media and those who haven't figured it out yet will be shocked at the real meaning.

Voyager as a whole was so chaotic, I'm not even sure it has a "real meaning".

 

[fireproof78]

Voyager as a whole was so chaotic, I'm not even sure it has a "real meaning".

Entertainment.

That's it.