How would you change the show?

[Anwar]

I mean, you kinda sorta have to follow the premise more consistently rather than occasionally. Again, the writers set it up.

So even when you write your a$$ off and produce great stories that still only get a lukewarm reception with little to no appreciation, you should just accept that no matter how hard you try and no matter how hard you work, you'll never ever succeed and just keep writing as hard as you can even though you know it will never get anything more than a "Meh, not absolutely awful...I guess." response? For the entire run of the show?

 

[Oddish]

Regarding the year of hell... it's Ok for it to be wiped away the way it was. Because if Voyager is a show where the characters grow and change instead of being locked on a metaphorical treadmill by endless application of the Big Red Reset Button, people aren't sick and tired of said button. Some really good episodes use it, after all, most notably "The Visitor".

I know I've said this before, but I think it's relevant:

There was a time when the characters of Voyager grew and changed.
A hero we knew and admired fell in battle.
Another character suffered the anguish of bereavement. As he was lost in his suffering, another person helped him cope, and love blossomed between them.
Two characters who had too little to do found themselves embracing new roles and responsibilities. A third found love in perhaps the most unexpected place possible. New faces joined the family and found their place in it.
A character who the writers didn't even bother to name... he had a name here, and he developed as well, developing the all too human quality of vanity.
And the central character of the story... she knew life, in all its joy, terror, comedy, tragedy, and the routine of daily life.
For that time, we saw a hint of the show that maybe Voyager should have been... not perfect by any means, but a show where the world changed and risks were taken and the characters were did not stay the same.
And then...

Spoiler

"Before and After" ended.

 

[Sci]

The first half of the show, and then delving into things like "What does it take to create a Galactic Alliance and what happens once the threat it was formed to deal with is gone?". DS9 was about showing the problems with the Federation, VOY could've transitioned from "Running away from everything" which is antithetical to Trek in the first place and moved to a proper Trek plot of "what GOOD does a Federation bring?"

Okay, I can see that being an interesting premise, but I just don't see why Voyager has to get back to the Alpha Quadrant first for that.

You mean like how DS9 never got a replacement for the Defiant like it was nothing? Oh wait...

I'm really not interested in a pissing contest over DS9's shortcuts. DS9 had plenty of flaws too, and there's a thread about how it could have been improved as well.

And what if it just drags on and on and on without resolution and you're left wondering "Ugh, when are they going to move past this?"

Any arc will have some people thinking that, because no story can entertain all people. But good writing can keep the majority of people entertained.

Look at DS9's 6th Season, after they retook the Station the rest of the season was nothing but filler except for like 3 episodes dealing with the Dominion again.

Some of DS9's best episodes happened in Season Six after the station occupation arc ended, including "You Are Cordially Invited," "Statistical Probabilities," "The Magnificent Ferengi," "Waltz," "Far Beyond the Stars," "Inquisition," "In the Pale Moonlight," "His Way," "Valiant," "Time's Orphan," and "The Sound of Her Voice." Seriously -- Season Six might be some of the best run DS9 ever had.

Or the Renegade Telepath plot in Babylon 5's 5th Season.

The Renegade Telepath arc wasn't half as bad as people claim.

Or everything to do with Clara in Doctor Who.

Clara had a grand total of six episodes where she was a mystery, and the mystery of Clara was only the focus of three of them ("The Bells of Saint John," "Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS," and "The Name of the Doctor").

Also Clara is quite possibly my favorite Doctor Who companion, and her pairing with the Eleventh Doctor might be my favorite Doctor/companion pairing.

Uh huh, and when Voyager did episodes like "Living Witness" and "The Void" and "Scorpion" all they got for "following the premise" was "Meh" at best. No matter what the reception is to those stories today.

Forgive me, but it seems like your purpose here is less to imagine how VOY might have been improved while still staying true to its spirit, than it is to allege somehow unfair treatment of VOY.

 

[fireproof78]

So even when you write your a$$ off and produce great stories that still only get a lukewarm reception with little to no appreciation, you should just accept that no matter how hard you try and no matter how hard you work, you'll never ever succeed and just keep writing as hard as you can even though you know it will never get anything more than a "Meh, not absolutely awful...I guess." response? For the entire run of the show?

Yes.

 

[spinagogue]

So even when you write your a$$ off and produce great stories that still only get a lukewarm reception with little to no appreciation, you should just accept that no matter how hard you try and no matter how hard you work, you'll never ever succeed and just keep writing as hard as you can even though you know it will never get anything more than a "Meh, not absolutely awful...I guess." response? For the entire run of the show?

Yes.

I understand both points of view but agree completely. Yes, they should. Because what ultimately matters is the quality of the show. The degree of which relates to how much people will continue to care about it, i.e., the vitality of discussion forums such as TrekBBS.

 

[Phaser Two]

In the midst of my rewatch . . . into S6 now . . . I have to answer the thread question by saying "I really wouldn't." I am really enjoying it and just am not bothered by the common alleged flaws bandied about.

 

[Anwar]

Okay, I can see that being an interesting premise, but I just don't see why Voyager has to get back to the Alpha Quadrant first for that.

It doesn't have to, it should be HOW they get back eventually. Not by just traveling on their own but as a by product of what they did in the Delta Quadrant.

Any arc will have some people thinking that, because no story can entertain all people. But good writing can keep the majority of people entertained.

It's just that I've seen the endless conflict in other shows like "The 100" and "Stargate Universe". It just got boring after a few seasons.

Some of DS9's best episodes happened in Season Six after the station occupation arc ended, including "You Are Cordially Invited," "Statistical Probabilities," "The Magnificent Ferengi," "Waltz," "Far Beyond the Stars," "Inquisition," "In the Pale Moonlight," "His Way," "Valiant," "Time's Orphan," and "The Sound of Her Voice." Seriously -- Season Six might be some of the best run DS9 ever had.

But how many of those had anything to do with the Dominion War plot directly?

The Renegade Telepath arc wasn't half as bad as people claim.

Clara had a grand total of six episodes where she was a mystery, and the mystery of Clara was only the focus of three of them ("The Bells of Saint John," "Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS," and "The Name of the Doctor").

Okay, that plotline in House about that jackass Detective. The plot in Lost about Michael looking for Walt. The 2nd Season of Walking Dead where they're on that Farm.

Forgive me, but it seems like your purpose here is less to imagine how VOY might have been improved while still staying true to its spirit, than it is to allege somehow unfair treatment of VOY.

Well frankly I always thought there were issues with the core premise of the show that needed to be rectified.

 

[Anwar]

Yes.

I understand both points of view but agree completely. Yes, they should. Because what ultimately matters is the quality of the show. The degree of which relates to how much people will continue to care about it, i.e., the vitality of discussion forums such as TrekBBS.

Even if it means you won't get anything but apathy and abuse during the actual run of the show, and only find some mild appreciation for anything you did decades later when it no longer matters?

 

[fireproof78]

Even if it means you won't get anything but apathy and abuse during the actual run of the show, and only find some mild appreciation for anything you did decades later when it no longer matters?

Yes.

 

[Oddish]

In the midst of my rewatch . . . into S6 now . . . I have to answer the thread question by saying "I really wouldn't." I am really enjoying it and just am not bothered by the common alleged flaws bandied about.

My philosophy is that Voyager's showrunners overall did what they thought would attract viewers in the here and now (or there and then, from our perspective). So not sure I'd make large changes either. But I staunchly maintain that a few judicious tweaks would have taken nothing from the overall experience, and significantly strengthened the show. Explain why the ship suddenly has infinite torpedoes, shuttles, and replicator energy. Or why Seven's "resurrect Neelix" trick can't be repeated with other casualties. And for crying out loud, Harry didn't do anything as an ensign that he couldn't have done as a lieutenant.

 

[Farscape One]

But how many of those had anything to do with the Dominion War plot directly?

An episode doesn't have to be directly connected to the Dominion War to be about a part of life during the Dominion War.

From the listed examples...

"YOU ARE CORDIALLY INVITED" - Alexander was getting transferred to another ship because of the shortage of people in the war, so the wedding is now instead of later.

"STATISTICAL PROBABILITIES" - The Dominion was trying to be clever by 'negotiating' to get a system so they can have Ketracel White indefinitely, basically helping to seal a victory.

"THE MAGNIFICENT FERENGI" - It's very, very hard to picture this episode without the Dominion War as the backdrop.

"WALTZ" - A Dominion attack group destroyed the Honshu. The events here wouldn't have even happened if the war was not on. (In addition to the troop convoy ticking clock for the Defiant.)

"FAR BEYOND THE STARS" - Sisko lost another dear friend to the Dominion, and was distraught enough that he was thinking about resigning. Episode wouldn't have happened if not for the war.

"INQUISITION" - Mainly because the 'established behavior pattern' of Bashir mentioned by Sloan (events from "HIPPOCRATIC OATH", "IN PURGATORY'S SHADOW"/"BY INFERNO'S LIGHT", "STATISTICAL PROBABILITIES"), this episode could only happen now.

"IN THE PALE MOONLIGHT" - The entire premise is bringing the Romulans into the war.

"VALIANT" - The Valiant would not have been trapped behind enemy lines if the war wasn't on.

"HIS WAY", "TIME'S ORPHAN", "THE SOUND OF HER VOICE" - I agree that these could have happened in any season.

 

[at Quark's]

You mean like how DS9 never got a replacement for the Defiant like it was nothing? Oh wait...

It's war, Utopia Planitia probably is churning out starships at full capacity (and possibly other shipyards in the Federation as well), Commander Sisko is one of the most important commanders of that war, and DS9 is a location of prime strategical importance - at least it is when the wormhole is traversable, which admittedly isn't the case in S7 (but it could open again).

Under those circumstance, I would have thought it very odd if he hadn't gotten a replacement very swiftly. Should the show have explicitly worded this? I don't think so, but it would have been nice.

Likewise, I don't necessarily need an explanation for the fact that the Voyager crew cannot even build new photon torpedoes in S1, and then churn out stuff like Delta Flyers, atmospheric pods and possibly shuttles in later seasons which some people apparently see as a contradiction. The explanation 'they simply progressively got better over time at procuring resources and building their own stuff' is sufficient I think, which to me seems a fairly logical assumption and therefore needn't be mentioned explicitly in the show, even though a few references to that development would have been nice.

 

[Orac Zen]

The Renegade Telepath arc wasn't half as bad as people claim.

Not the right place for this, but anyway: Yes, it really was that bad, if not worse. Lyta (of all people) acting as a willing doormat for Fabyron, a character with no redeeming features whatsoever who wanted Sheridan et al to atone for something the Vorlons did. Absolute drivel.

But I staunchly maintain that a few judicious tweaks would have taken nothing from the overall experience, and significantly strengthened the show.

Agreed. Dyed in the wool and utterly unapologetic Voyager fan that I am, I've never been blind to its (actual) flaws and several of them could have been easily sorted at the time. Shame it didn't happen, but it in no way detracts from my enjoyment of the series. I really have to make time to rewatch it; it's been far too long.

 

[Sci]

Not the right place for this, but anyway: Yes, it really was that bad, if not worse. Lyta (of all people) acting as a willing doormat for Fabyron, a character with no redeeming features whatsoever who wanted Sheridan et al to atone for something the Vorlons did. Absolute drivel.

He was the leader of a marginalized community that was brutally oppressed on one hand by non-telepaths, brutally oppressed on the other hand by the Psi Corps, dealing with a President who had just sent dozens of non-consenting telepaths to their deaths in the Earth Alliance Civil War and who had quite frankly consistently used Lyta when it suited his purposes and then treated her like dirt when she wasn't of use to him. And what did he want? He wanted the ISA to find his people a planet of their own that could be a sanctuary from the groups that wanted to exploit and oppress them.

Sorry, but I'm mostly on Byron's side here.

 

[Farscape One]

I actually agree with Sci here.

Byron did have a point, and through Lyta we saw how things just got worse and worse for her. (For instance, despite her helping end the Shadow War, she couldn't even afgord to stay in her own quarters... not without having to make a deal with Bester.)

 

[Anwar]

It's war, Utopia Planitia probably is churning out starships at full capacity (and possibly other shipyards in the Federation as well), Commander Sisko is one of the most important commanders of that war, and DS9 is a location of prime strategical importance - at least it is when the wormhole is traversable, which admittedly isn't the case in S7 (but it could open again).

Under those circumstance, I would have thought it very odd if he hadn't gotten a replacement very swiftly. Should the show have explicitly worded this? I don't think so, but it would have been nice.

Okay, how about how quickly they repaired that blown off Pylon in "To the Death"?

Seriously, if Voyager had a story where the ship was mostly destroyed and they found some advanced aliens who decide to fix the ship for them so the show can keep going, or make a replica of Voyager they could move onto, the response wouldn't have been the same as when DS9 got a new Defiant.

 

[Oddish]

Likewise, I don't necessarily need an explanation for the fact that the Voyager crew cannot even build new photon torpedoes in S1, and then churn out stuff like Delta Flyers, atmospheric pods and possibly shuttles in later seasons which some people apparently see as a contradiction.

But early on, they couldn't even do a frickin' cup of coffee without taxing their systems... them, four years later, they're churning out jumbo shuttlecraft with warp-7 engines, no problemo. That's a little more than "more efficient use of resources" can explain, IMO.

 

[at Quark's]

Okay, how about how quickly they repaired that blown off Pylon in "To the Death"?

I'll give you that one. That pylon was repaired way too quickly.

Generally though, I would expect that how quickly things could be repaired or replaced between a crew with the might of the entire Federation behind it (if need be) and a crew that was alone would be significant.

Seriously, if Voyager had a story where the ship was mostly destroyed and they found some advanced aliens who decide to fix the ship for them so the show can keep going, or make a replica of Voyager they could move onto, the response wouldn't have been the same as when DS9 got a new Defiant.

Still, I'd think that the Federation quickly replacing the Defiant is far more plausible than VOY finding friendly aliens that are willing to either give them another ship or fix their ship (what would the VOY crew have to offer those aliens in return?) But perhaps it could have been done if VOY sacrificed itself for those aliens, who now feel indebted to help them on their way again. Or some such thing.

But early on, they couldn't even do a frickin' cup of coffee without taxing their systems... them, four years later, they're churning out jumbo shuttlecraft with warp-7 engines, no problemo. That's a little more than "more efficient use of resources" can explain, IMO.

I didn't only say 'more efficient', I also said, better in procuring them. Being chased less by the Kazon once they were behind them could also have given them a bit more opportunity to find them.

To be honest, it wasn't even really that plausible back in the 1st season. So they don't have enough energy to waste on replicators, yet at the same time they had energy to spare to make a detour to Talax and help a Hakoonian scientist with a rather far-fetched experiment? (very good episode otherwise BTW). And that's even without starting about the holodecks that 'ran on an incompatible energy matrix' or something like that.

 

[Oddish]

To be honest, it wasn't even really that plausible back in the 1st season. So they don't have enough energy to waste on replicators, yet at the same time they had energy to spare to make a detour to Talax and help a Hakoonian scientist with a rather far-fetched experiment? (very good episode otherwise BTW)

True. Making a cup of Joe would have been nothing compared to the energy required to move a ship the size of a Nimitz class aircraft carrier along at three hundred million kilometers per second. So if they wanted to go that route, just have the replicators destroyed in the course of the flight to the Delta Quadrant.

 

[at Quark's]

Just checked Jetrel and Jetrel actually made them believe that a) Neelix was dying from metremia and b) he might be able to synthesize an antibody with the help of Voyager's transporter technology, which may have sounded less far-fetched than the experiment he actually wanted to do. That makes it sound less frivolous of Janeway to decide to go there, but still, it's committing substantial resources.