How would you change the show?

[fireproof78]

If that's not what detractors mean when they say that VOY's premise wasn't done right, they need to clarify.

Then ask.

I'm just saying that if they had tried, it would've still gotten stale after 2 seasons or so anyways and they'd need something new to keep the story going.

No kidding. That's how stories work.

Would Voyager get that kind of fair treatment? No it wouldn't. It would just be taken as another sign of the crew being utter incompetents.

Speaking of things never given a chance....

 

[valkyrie013]

Goes to the saying, You can do everything right, and still lose.

Losing your ship sucks, but sometimes, you tried anything and everything and get everything right, and still lose the ship. Be it a ship of all heros or all zeros. Something like, if the borg REALLY wanted to destroy the ship, its dead, no mater what the crew comes up with, 5 cubes come a calling, your toast.

But the story will change through out the show, think of Crusade, the Babylon 5 spinoff, in it they set out in a ship to find a cure to a plague. but the plague was going to be solved within 2 seasons, but then move on to something else.
Yes, 7 years of the same would suck, but it wouldn't be the same, the overall theme of heading home would be the same, but it would be different stories through out, look at what they come up with, 7 seasons of stories, that wasn't that bad, some stinkers, but in all not bad.
Were saying it would go from not bad to really great if they stuck to the premise better.

 

[gweeps]

There should have been more events like this:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Oddish]

Tuvok's flashback was a nice touch.

 

[at Quark's]

If the Voyager crew lost its ship due to some heroic cause, I wouldn't view them as incompetents.

However, I would expect them to be stranded after that (and the series' premise effectively screwed, if they couldn't find a good alternative storyline for the rest of the series). After all there's no Starfleet around that can issue them a new ship like in those other cases where Our Heroes lost their ship, and most alien species probably won't just simply gift them one, either.

 

[Oddish]

"Flight of the Phoenix" in space, maybe?

 

[Anwar]

Then ask.

@Sci made it clear he thinks that the "Lost Ship" thing could last for 7 years, without anything bigger than that. That seems to be the consensus as well, that 7 years of "Gilligan's Island in Space" wouldn't get dull.

I think it would.

No kidding. That's how stories work.

Then we should be talking about alternative plotlines to replace the "Lost in Space" plot after 1 or 2 seasons.

Speaking of things never given a chance....

Well it's true, "Captain Kirk never would've lost his ship in battle and have to take over another one!"

Despite that EXACT THING happened in both continuities...

Goes to the saying, You can do everything right, and still lose.

Unless you're Kirk, Picard or Sisko.

Something like, if the borg REALLY wanted to destroy the ship, its dead, no mater what the crew comes up with, 5 cubes come a calling, your toast

You mean like when DS9 had the Prophets destroy that huge Dominion Armada?

But the story will change through out the show, think of Crusade, the Babylon 5 spinoff, in it they set out in a ship to find a cure to a plague. but the plague was going to be solved within 2 seasons, but then move on to something else

And how did that plan work out?

If the Voyager crew lost its ship due to some heroic cause, I wouldn't view them as incompetents.

However, I would expect them to be stranded after that (and the series' premise effectively screwed, if they couldn't find a good alternative storyline for the rest of the series). After all there's no Starfleet around that can issue them a new ship like in those other cases where Our Heroes lost their ship, and most alien species probably won't just simply gift them one, either.

Exactly. You can't go on from that. It's the end of the show unless you pull out some random contrivance that you'd be condemned for using. Like how NuKirk just happened to find a usable Warp Capable Wreck on the planet they crashed on after Enterprise was destroyed in "Star Trek Beyond" and Starfleet just HAD to make another Enterprise for him after.

 

[fireproof78]

That seems to be the consensus as well, that 7 years of "Gilligan's Island in Space" wouldn't get dull.

All depends on the writers. That's the freaking point. The condemnation out of hand is simply not productive.

Then we should be talking about alternative plotlines to replace the "Lost in Space" plot after 1 or 2 seasons.

Pretty sure several suggestions have been made. Feel free to add some of your own.

Well it's true,

This is not a productive rejoinder though. I'm curious what people in this thread think now, based on their own perspectives of the show in the years, not what a fictional audience might think.

At this point it isn't a discussion; it's an argument about how the "audience" (whom is as real as the Boogeyman in this thread) would always be negative.

Exactly. You can't go on from that. It's the end of the show unless you pull out some random contrivance that you'd be condemned for using.

Star Trek made a career out of pulling stuff out of it's ass.

Voyager is no different.

 

[Sci]

@Sci made it clear he thinks that the "Lost Ship" thing could last for 7 years, without anything bigger than that.

Well, no, I've said before that I think the "journey home" arc needed to receive some complications. I just don't think it needs to be abandoned (just like I don't agree that the original premise of DS9 was abandoned).

Then we should be talking about alternative plotlines to replace the "Lost in Space" plot after 1 or 2 seasons.

I mean, no, we don't, the series ended twenty-two years and three presidents ago (almost four presidents, really, since only the second half of VOY's last season aired under Bush at the start of his term), and we're shooting the breeze on the Internet, not writing a series proposal for Paramount to remake the show.

But I think seeing Voyager become a democracy and how different ship's parliamentary majorities come to power and cope with Voyager's evolving political situation in the Delta Quadrant is one idea. Another would be, Voyager getting suck in one region for a season or two and needing to build up a meaningful alliance of hostile cultures -- I think that was the premise behind "The Void," wasn't it? I'd also like to see something like "Year of Hell" but without the reset button at the end. Essentially a lot of the time, VOY would do a perfectly good arc but they'd artificially compress it into one episode when it ought to take up a season.

You mean like when DS9 had the Prophets destroy that huge Dominion Armada?

There are some fundamental differences here.

First off, the Dominion and the Borg are entirely different threats. The Borg, sans the Queen, are, from a literary trope POV, monsters rather than characters: they have no meaningful personality and do not act on motives other than the desire to consume the protagonists. The Dominion, by contrast, are characters; they each have distinct personalities and act on distinct motives. The Founders, the Vorta, and the Jem'Hadar (and later the Cardassians) all constitute distinct sub-cultures within the Dominion, and those subcultures are in conflict with one-another to varying degrees.

The nature of the threat they pose is also different. The Borg are supposed to be overwhelmingly powerful -- a single cube is supposed to be capable of decimating over four dozen starships. It is, in other words, Godzilla vs. Bambi. They are supposed to be at a level of power where destroying a single starship should be easy, and their repeated failure to do so undermines verisimilitude.

The Dominion, by contrast, are powerful but they're not presented as inherently overwhelming the way the Borg are. DS9 S3 is all about the Federation building tactical parity with the Dominion after the destruction of the Challenger. Individual Dominion ships can be somewhat tactically superior to individual Federation ships, but it's not presented as a Godzilla-vs-Bambi and adding more ships on one side or the other can even the odds.

Thirdly, even with the destruction of the Dominion fleet in "The Sacrifice of Angels," the Dominion remained a credible threat. The war lasted another season and three-fourths, and multiple large-scale battles had to be fought. It wasn't a single ship just constantly facing down fleets of ships that were supposed to be overwhelmingly powerful and then winning all the time.

 

[Anwar]

All depends on the writers. That's the freaking point. The condemnation out of hand is simply not productive.

There's nothing wrong with admitting that the premise was an inherently problematic one to start with.

Star Trek made a career out of pulling stuff out of it's ass.

Voyager is no different.

Except VOY gets condemned for it more than any other Trek.

Well, no, I've said before that I think the "journey home" arc needed to receive some complications. I just don't think it needs to be abandoned (just like I don't agree that the original premise of DS9 was abandoned).

I do think DS9's premise was abandoned, at least for a few seasons, once the Dominion showed up. Sure, it came back at the end but not without being sidelines for years.

Similarly, VOY should've dropped the "Voyage Home" thing for a few seasons to do other stuff and then pick it up after. Having them get home only in S7 is lazy, they should get home much sooner.

Another would be, Voyager getting suck in one region for a season or two and needing to build up a meaningful alliance of hostile cultures -- I think that was the premise behind "The Void," wasn't it?

VOY's presence in the DQ being a new thing that changed the balance of power should've been the bigger plot. Like, they're the only ones with Warp Drive while everyone uses a different type of Space Travel and this is an advantage they have over any enemies who otherwise outnumber them. Or, they're the only ones that can cure a Plague and this wins them allies so their resource issues are resolved for a long long time.

I'd also like to see something like "Year of Hell" but without the reset button at the end.

You can't do that kind of story and continue without a form of reset button. VOY would've been too badly damaged to continue on after that. The whole point of "Year of Hell" is that Voyager never would've survived if they really went through something like that without a reset. Too much irreparable damage would've been done.

First off, the Dominion and the Borg are entirely different threats. The Borg, sans the Queen, are, from a literary trope POV, monsters rather than characters: they have no meaningful personality and do not act on motives other than the desire to consume the protagonists.

Which is a problem when the Borg are the only ones capable of being a recurring enemy the way the Dominion was in DS9. Because the audience couldn't accept there being anyone else on par with or superior to the Borg.

The nature of the threat they pose is also different. The Borg are supposed to be overwhelmingly powerful -- a single cube is supposed to be capable of decimating over four dozen starships. It is, in other words, Godzilla vs. Bambi. They are supposed to be at a level of power where destroying a single starship should be easy, and their repeated failure to do so undermines verisimilitude.

And their presence also means a true proper alternate major enemy couldn't exist in the entire Delta Quadrant as long as the Borg were there. Meaning something had to be done to neutralize the Borg so they aren't a threat or as powerful as they were. That way other powerful enemies on par with the Dominion or Klingons could exist in the Delta Quadrant without ever being in danger from the Borg attacking. Something is keeping the Borg from coming after them.

And when VOY did just that and neutralized the Borg via the 8472 aliens...all it brought were complaints even though there's no way the show could've continued without the Borg being neutralized.

Look at the Walking Dead, they had there be Human enemies more than capable of fighting off the Zombies so that these Humans could be the antagonists that the Zombies never could be. Something similar had to be done to the Borg to keep them from interfering.

Thirdly, even with the destruction of the Dominion fleet in "The Sacrifice of Angels," the Dominion remained a credible threat. The war lasted another season and three-fourths, and multiple large-scale battles had to be fought. It wasn't a single ship just constantly facing down fleets of ships that were supposed to be overwhelmingly powerful and then winning all the time.

Which is why the "Single Ship" thing had to also be ditched eventually too. You assemble on army of your own to fight back against a major foe, so that way your allies get killed without the main ship or characters ever being in direct danger.That's how DS9 did it, that's how Farscape did it and that's how NuBSG did it.

VOY's very premise is a straitjacket to proper Epic storytelling, that's the problem

 

[fireproof78]

There's nothing wrong with admitting that the premise was an inherently problematic one to start with.

And there's nothing wrong with trying to work within it rather than just give up.

Except VOY gets condemned for it more than any other Trek.

Pretty sure I hate contrivance in TNG, ENT, DS9, DSC, PIC, and TOS. I'll find issue with it in any presentation.

 

[Oddish]

@Sci made it clear he thinks that the "Lost Ship" thing could last for 7 years, without anything bigger than that. That seems to be the consensus as well, that 7 years of "Gilligan's Island in Space" wouldn't get dull.

I think it would.

If it was Gilligan's Island in space, maybe. If it was "exploring strange new worlds", as they did, but with the complications provided (limited resupply, limited energy, dissent among the crew), maybe not.

You mean like when DS9 had the Prophets destroy that huge Dominion Armada?

I like to think they didn't destroy them, just moved them to a place and point in the timeline where they couldn't do anyone any harm.

You can't do that kind of story and continue without a form of reset button. VOY would've been too badly damaged to continue on after that. The whole point of "Year of Hell" is that Voyager never would've survived if they really went through something like that without a reset. Too much irreparable damage would've been done.

YoH was a time when the Big Red Reset Button was actually well used. That doesn't mean that there weren't times when it was not.

 

[Orac Zen]

Keep in mind it's the UPN suits that tended to think the audience was stupid.

Had the suits left VGR and ENT alone, I really think a good chunk of the issues either wouldn't have existed or been solved by the second or third season.

This, of course, is the fundamental "problem" the creators / staff of Voyager faced that the creators / staff of the vaunted DS9 and nBSG did not. UPN saw that TNG had been very popular and successful. UPN decided that was the way to go and decreed that Voyager had to be TNG 2.0. No character conflict, no serialisation, none of the things that (supposedly) made DS9 and nBSG superior. Had the showrunners of DS9 and nBSG had their hands tied behind their backs as Voyager's showrunners did, I submit they'd have been very different shows.

It's nice to wonder what would have been if the Voyager staff had had the creative freedom those other shows enjoyed (the much maligned and derided Braga's year-long "year of hell" was a great idea, swiftly canned by UPN), but they didn't and that's the prime reason Voyager is what it is (there were others, of course, but that's the big one). It's all very well to say that "'they' should have done this, this and this" but when the network that screens your show makes it perfectly clear what sort of show they want, doing something else - and keeping said show on the air - becomes problematic. Such is life, and the realities of making a show for network TV.

 

[spinagogue]

Keep up the overall better sense of continuity and less inconsistent storytelling of seasons 1 through 3, and keep Kes, along with Seven, obviously.

Tuvix is a sort of Where's Waldo ghost who appears in every episode.

 

[Sci]

I do think DS9's premise was abandoned, at least for a few seasons, once the Dominion showed up. Sure, it came back at the end but not without being sidelines for years.

Again, I don't agree. Everything that happened on Deep Space Nine was the direct consequence of different cultures encountering each other as a result of the Bajoran Wormhole bringing the Alpha and Beta Quadrants into contact and focuses specifically on the relationships between the Federation, Bajor, and Cardassia. Even when the Dominion War consumes the series, the war only happens because the Wormhole has brought the Dominion into contact with the Alpha Quadrant, and control of Deep Space 9 and the Wormhole is the key to victory.

Similarly, VOY should've dropped the "Voyage Home" thing for a few seasons to do other stuff and then pick it up after. Having them get home only in S7 is lazy, they should get home much sooner.



VOY's presence in the DQ being a new thing that changed the balance of power should've been the bigger plot. Like, they're the only ones with Warp Drive while everyone uses a different type of Space Travel and this is an advantage they have over any enemies who otherwise outnumber them. Or, they're the only ones that can cure a Plague and this wins them allies so their resource issues are resolved for a long long time.

To me, what you're suggesting here is not an abandonment of the "Odyssey in space" premise. It naturally flows from the premise and represents a complication, not an abandonment, of that premise. Even if Voyager has to spend a few years in one area, they're still ultimately trying to get home.

You can't do that kind of story and continue without a form of reset button. VOY would've been too badly damaged to continue on after that. The whole point of "Year of Hell" is that Voyager never would've survived if they really went through something like that without a reset. Too much irreparable damage would've been done.

Or, y'know, you could do a season arc about Voyager having to build an alliance and lead the fight against the Krenim, getting worse and worse over the course of the season, have the big climatic fight, have Voyager be trashed right up to the point of being unsalvagable, and then maybe you build the next season around Janeway's struggle to keep the crew together and rebuild the ship before resuming the journey home. And maybe when you rebuild the ship, it's fundamentally different in some way -- modified with alien technology, with alien hulls or alien warp nacelles retrofitted so that it looks ugly as shit but also kind of beautiful, like a tiger earning its stripes. Just spitballin'. But I do ultimately think you could do a season-long version of "Year of Hell" without Voyager needing to be outright destroyed at the end and therefore without the reset button.

Which is a problem when the Borg are the only ones capable of being a recurring enemy the way the Dominion was in DS9. Because the audience couldn't accept there being anyone else on par with or superior to the Borg.

Yeah, I do think it would have been better to develop a recurring enemy whose power level was high enough that it might be plausible they would be recurring, yet wouldn't be in the "nearly-unstoppable forces of nature" column like the Borg.

And their presence also means a true proper alternate major enemy couldn't exist in the entire Delta Quadrant as long as the Borg were there. Meaning something had to be done to neutralize the Borg so they aren't a threat or as powerful as they were. That way other powerful enemies on par with the Dominion or Klingons could exist in the Delta Quadrant without ever being in danger from the Borg attacking. Something is keeping the Borg from coming after them.

And when VOY did just that and neutralized the Borg via the 8472 aliens...all it brought were complaints even though there's no way the show could've continued without the Borg being neutralized.

I mean, I didn't get the impression that "Scorpion" had established that the Borg had been irreparably weakened as a result of the war. To me, "Scorpion" seemed to establish that the Borg were on the verge of losing their war, then Species 8472 withdrew and the Borg would be able to rapidly rebuild to their prewar levels. If the intent was to establish that the Borg were irreparably weakened and had been brought down to the point where Voyager could plausibly beat them in one-on-one ship combat, then that needed a much more explicit depiction than it was given.

Which is why the "Single Ship" thing had to also be ditched eventually too.

I do agree that it would have been a good complication of the premise if Voyager had eventually been, for instance, joined permanently by the USS Equinox (maybe instead of the Equinox being destroyed, Ransom dies and Janeway installs Chakotay and Tom as captain and first officer of the Equinox), or if there had been a ship full of Talaxian refugees that accompanied Voyager on their journey to the Alpha Quadrant.

 

[Anwar]

Again, I don't agree. Everything that happened on Deep Space Nine was the direct consequence of different cultures encountering each other as a result of the Bajoran Wormhole bringing the Alpha and Beta Quadrants into contact and focuses specifically on the relationships between the Federation, Bajor, and Cardassia. Even when the Dominion War consumes the series, the war only happens because the Wormhole has brought the Dominion into contact with the Alpha Quadrant, and control of Deep Space 9 and the Wormhole is the key to victory.

Yes, but DS9's original premise was about the Federation helping the Bajorans rebuild after the Cardassians left and Cardassian attempts to regain control. That was abandoned by S2.

To me, what you're suggesting here is not an abandonment of the "Odyssey in space" premise. It naturally flows from the premise and represents a complication, not an abandonment, of that premise. Even if Voyager has to spend a few years in one area, they're still ultimately trying to get home.

Well, I do think they need to get past the "Lost Ship getting home" thing before the last two seasons. Like, they should get back to the Alpha Quadrant by the middle of the show and then have a different reason to go back.

Or, y'know, you could do a season arc about Voyager having to build an alliance and lead the fight against the Krenim, getting worse and worse over the course of the season, have the big climatic fight, have Voyager be trashed right up to the point of being unsalvagable, and then maybe you build the next season around Janeway's struggle to keep the crew together and rebuild the ship before resuming the journey home.

Just have them find a friendly shipyard in the finale and have the next season premiere be a time jump to after they fixed everything. Just be rid of the holdovers from the prior arc and wash your hands of it.

Yeah, I do think it would have been better to develop a recurring enemy whose power level was high enough that it might be plausible they would be recurring, yet wouldn't be in the "nearly-unstoppable forces of nature" column like the Borg.

Problem is, why didn't the Borg assimilate these people. That's why the Borg's very presence was always going to be a problem. They couldn't think of any reasons why, so they chose to make the Borg themselves this enemy.

If the intent was to establish that the Borg were irreparably weakened and had been brought down to the point where Voyager could plausibly beat them in one-on-one ship combat, then that needed a much more explicit depiction than it was given.

It wasn't to establish that, but it should have been. Anything to get rid of them so they couldn't affect Voyager's storylines.

I do agree that it would have been a good complication of the premise if Voyager had eventually been, for instance, joined permanently by the USS Equinox (maybe instead of the Equinox being destroyed, Ransom dies and Janeway installs Chakotay and Tom as captain and first officer of the Equinox), or if there had been a ship full of Talaxian refugees that accompanied Voyager on their journey to the Alpha Quadrant.

It would be better if they had to stop some Galactic threat, build an alliance to do so, realize they can't do it even with their allies, find a way back to the Alpha Quadrant and return as part of a Federation Taskforce. Have the show evolve from people running away from the unknown to those who willingly plunge headfirst into it.

 

[Sci]

Yes, but DS9's original premise was about the Federation helping the Bajorans rebuild after the Cardassians left and Cardassian attempts to regain control. That was abandoned by S2.

I don't think of rebuilding Bajor as the premise per se. I think of the culture clash produced by the discovery of the Wormhole as the premise.

Well, I do think they need to get past the "Lost Ship getting home" thing before the last two seasons. Like, they should get back to the Alpha Quadrant by the middle of the show and then have a different reason to go back.

Okay, but then what makes VOY any different from DS9 or TNG?

Or, y'know, you could do a season arc about Voyager having to build an alliance and lead the fight against the Krenim, getting worse and worse over the course of the season, have the big climatic fight, have Voyager be trashed right up to the point of being unsalvagable, and then maybe you build the next season around Janeway's struggle to keep the crew together and rebuild the ship before resuming the journey home.

Just have them find a friendly shipyard in the finale and have the next season premiere be a time jump to after they fixed everything. Just be rid of the holdovers from the prior arc and wash your hands of it.

You could do that, but that would be just another version of the reset button. I don't want to see them with problems that are easily fixed. I want to see the characters coping with the long-term consequences of their decisions and I want to see them work to overcome their problems. I'm interested in what the crew of Voyager does if their ship is stuck in port for a year and it's not clear if it's repairable. I want to see how they keep their community together. I want to see how their community interacts with the local community. I want to see how different parts of the crew react -- which ones want to stay, which ones want to abandon the ship and try to find another way home, which ones want to repair Voyager. I want to see which members of the local community decide to join the crew! I want to see how the local powers react when the Krenim come knocking for revenge. I want to see if parts of the Krenim state side with Voyager. I want to see if some of the local powers side with the Krenim state. I want to see whether or not the local powers decide to protect Voyager, or if Voyager once repaired protects the local powers. I want to see how being in this long-term situation changes the main characters and changes their relationships. I don't want to "just be rid of the holdovers."

In fact, that attitude -- let's just press the reset button; let's just be rid of the problem instead of having characters deal with their problems -- is my fundamental objection to how Star Trek: Voyager was so often written. I want characters' choices to have consequences or else it's just spinning its wheels.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes, but DS9's original premise was about the Federation helping the Bajorans rebuild after the Cardassians left and Cardassian attempts to regain control. That was abandoned by S2.

No. It just expounded on the premise. Consequences are a part of storytelling. What if Starfleet steps in and aids a struggling world so close to a belligerent power? How do they manage those crises and what are the ongoing implications?

That's bearing out a premise. Voyager preferred avoidance and reset to expounding on its original idea. And, no, it wasn't because of some objections from viewers; it was the studio saying "make this like TNG, regardless of the premise. "

 

[Anwar]

Okay, but then what makes VOY any different from DS9 or TNG?

The first half of the show, and then delving into things like "What does it take to create a Galactic Alliance and what happens once the threat it was formed to deal with is gone?". DS9 was about showing the problems with the Federation, VOY could've transitioned from "Running away from everything" which is antithetical to Trek in the first place and moved to a proper Trek plot of "what GOOD does a Federation bring?"

You could do that, but that would be just another version of the reset button. I don't want to see them with problems that are easily fixed.

You mean like how DS9 never got a replacement for the Defiant like it was nothing? Oh wait...

I want to see the characters coping with the long-term consequences of their decisions and I want to see them work to overcome their problems.

And what if it just drags on and on and on without resolution and you're left wondering "Ugh, when are they going to move past this?"

Look at DS9's 6th Season, after they retook the Station the rest of the season was nothing but filler except for like 3 episodes dealing with the Dominion again.

Or the Renegade Telepath plot in Babylon 5's 5th Season.

Or everything to do with Clara in Doctor Who.

That's bearing out a premise. Voyager preferred avoidance and reset to expounding on its original idea. And, no, it wasn't because of some objections from viewers; it was the studio saying "make this like TNG, regardless of the premise. "

Uh huh, and when Voyager did episodes like "Living Witness" and "The Void" and "Scorpion" all they got for "following the premise" was "Meh" at best. No matter what the reception is to those stories today.

 

[fireproof78]

"Living Witness" and "The Void" and "Scorpion" all they got for "following the premise" was "Meh" at best. No matter what the reception is to those stories today.

I mean, you kinda sorta have to follow the premise more consistently rather than occasionally. Again, the writers set it up.