Yes and I hate that too.
How would you change the show?
- Thread starter Admiral Jean-Luc Picard
- Start date
That's ultimately why I find the Cybermen far more terrifying than the Daleks. He does beat them both regularly, but only defeating the Cybermen usually comes at a personal cost.
Examples like Rose getting trapped in the other universe at the end of season 2, Adric's death in "Earthshock", or what happened to Bill.
It's not the fact The Doctor wins so much, it's winning against major villains without a cost is why some of those wins don't feel earned.
Examples like Rose getting trapped in the other universe at the end of season 2, Adric's death in "Earthshock", or what happened to Bill.
It's not the fact The Doctor wins so much, it's winning against major villains without a cost is why some of those wins don't feel earned.
But it still happened. Which should've been enough to spark angry complaints over showing people regaining their identities from the Borg "ruined them".
Again, this really comes down more to Voyager being "late to the Party" more than anything.
If we saw more freed Drones trying to reclaim their identities in TNG and aliens more powerful than the Borg in TNG then they wouldn't get the complaints that VOY did.
IE, if we saw Q destroy an armada of Borg Cubes would anyone complain?
Getting drones to regain their identity, whatever the method, isn't the problem that defanged the Borg. Or a more powerful foe. Or Q destroying Borg armadas. (Which is a ridiculous example because the Q can control space and time itself... of course they can defeat the Borg.)
The problem was a solitary Starfleet ship... not even a big one like a Galaxy class... not only beat the Borg on multiple occasions, but did it in the Borg's own backyard.
The first few victories can be understood... the cube in "UNITY" was self-destructed by the new collective on the planet, the cube Seven was on rammed Species 8472 and the remaining few Borg were ejected into space, the 29th century Borg in "DRONE" sacrificed itself to destroy a sphere. You know why those encounters can be understood?
Because nothing the Voyager did itself stopped those ships.
Then you have "DARK FRONTIER"... where Janeway just beams onto a Borg ship and steals a transwarp coil. Okay, ballsy... I'll give her that. Stupid? Absolutely, because all it takes is just for the Queen to act. But she just let them go and blackmailed Seven into staying. But Janeway was able to rescue Seven from the Queen's own unicomplex, escape to Voyager, and get the Queen's weird ship destroyed in the process. Seriously?!
Then you have the Borg kids on a cube... I'll admit it's a different direction, but that really was just a joke.
Then you have "UNIMATRIX ZERO"... where Janeway plans to attack a TACTICAL CUBE and purposefully get assimilated. Really? REALLY?!
I've heard the argument that having Seven helped them with knowledge and tactics, but given how adaptable the Borg are, a SINGLE ship should not have survived all those encounters, much less win them while on the offensive against the Borg.
THATis why the Borg were defanged by VOYAGER, and why no one batted an eye over "UNITY" or Species 8472. (Honestly, this is the first I've heard of people actually saying that Species 8472 neutered the Borg.)
The problem was a solitary Starfleet ship... not even a big one like a Galaxy class... not only beat the Borg on multiple occasions, but did it in the Borg's own backyard.
The first few victories can be understood... the cube in "UNITY" was self-destructed by the new collective on the planet, the cube Seven was on rammed Species 8472 and the remaining few Borg were ejected into space, the 29th century Borg in "DRONE" sacrificed itself to destroy a sphere. You know why those encounters can be understood?
Because nothing the Voyager did itself stopped those ships.
Then you have "DARK FRONTIER"... where Janeway just beams onto a Borg ship and steals a transwarp coil. Okay, ballsy... I'll give her that. Stupid? Absolutely, because all it takes is just for the Queen to act. But she just let them go and blackmailed Seven into staying. But Janeway was able to rescue Seven from the Queen's own unicomplex, escape to Voyager, and get the Queen's weird ship destroyed in the process. Seriously?!
Then you have the Borg kids on a cube... I'll admit it's a different direction, but that really was just a joke.
Then you have "UNIMATRIX ZERO"... where Janeway plans to attack a TACTICAL CUBE and purposefully get assimilated. Really? REALLY?!
I've heard the argument that having Seven helped them with knowledge and tactics, but given how adaptable the Borg are, a SINGLE ship should not have survived all those encounters, much less win them while on the offensive against the Borg.
THATis why the Borg were defanged by VOYAGER, and why no one batted an eye over "UNITY" or Species 8472. (Honestly, this is the first I've heard of people actually saying that Species 8472 neutered the Borg.)
So it all comes down to being that they did this one their own that annoys people?
So what, if turned out that Hugh had put together the Borg Resistance and they had several liberated Borg ships already under their control and they were helping Voyager during "Dark Frontier" and "Unimatrix Zero", then it would've been acceptable?
Again, if this had been the Enterprise-D doing this and they had Hugh (commanding a force of a few Borg ships he'd liberated) attack the Tactical Cube along with them, I doubt there'd be complaints.
Sounds more like if TNG had done this with Hugh's help, there'd be fewer complaints.
It would reduce some of my issues.
It all comes down to execution, not ideas alone.
Anwar, to repeat what you said... "It still happened."
Any 'what ifs' you come up with doesn't matter, VOYAGER did defang the Borg.
Any 'what ifs' you come up with doesn't matter, VOYAGER did defang the Borg.
I'm just saying that if TNG had done these stories, I don't think they'd be as ripped into.
I'm not so sure about that, particularly with the general consensus of later TNG being not as good as earlier seasons.
I don't know, actually. I saw an interesting video awhile back, it placed the blame on three fronts...
1. Later TNG, i.e. "I Borg" and "Descent"
2. ST: First Contact... this one surprised me, since I thought that it actually made the Borg scary-unstoppable again. But admittedly, it did introduce the Borg Queen.
3. Voyager.
I think the video was pre-Picard, so its influence wasn't mentioned.
Just some of Season 7. Seasons 3-6 were considered very good.
Voyagers' only real sin was simply over-using the Borg.
TNG had the Borg, the actual Borg, show up only twice. In Q Who and BOBW. In Q Who, they're losing and it takes Q to save them. In I, Borg they never encounter the Enterprise because they're able to hide from them (somehow) and in Descent it's renegade Borg who don't have assimilation or adaptation powers so they're just tough Cyborgs.
So in all of TNG, the Borg were defeated only once.
First Contact changed things by showing that Starfleet ships could now damage the Borg in normal combat. To the extent that the Borg ship could actually be destroyed. Voyager followed on that by showing an enemy that could defeat them one a 1 on 1 basis.
This is what was seen as their "defanging", that the Borg could be outright defeated in normal combat.
Of course, this would've been avoided if the Borg weren't so stupidly overpowered to begin with.
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Poor choice of words on my part, later TNG being not very good. I think more safe and static is a better term, because I myself really love seasons 3-6. I was parroting what I have heard and observed over the years from the internet.
And to be precise, VOYAGER's sin wasn't using the Borg, because we already figured they would encounter them once or twice due to the Delta Quadrant being their home.
It's the overuse of the Borg, which invariably led to the examples I listed above. THAT was the show's sin, which I smell UPN interference because they figured the audience really loved them.
And to be precise, VOYAGER's sin wasn't using the Borg, because we already figured they would encounter them once or twice due to the Delta Quadrant being their home.
It's the overuse of the Borg, which invariably led to the examples I listed above. THAT was the show's sin, which I smell UPN interference because they figured the audience really loved them.
It might have been so bad if they'd had the Borg resistance already be a thing before VOY did anything, led by Hugh, and they just stumble across the pre-existing conflict.
IE, always having protection and backup from Hugh's Borg.
The real problem is that the Borg could've gotten them back to the Alpha Quadrant easily anytime. And the show is dependent on them NEVER getting home till the end.
True, but that was the entire point of the episode that introduced them. That there were also races out there that were utterly relentless, that couldn't be reasoned with, and against whom the Federation was hopelessly outclassed regardless of what weapons or tricks they could come up with at short notice. Where even a Kirk-like genius action or bluff would still have come to naught, and resulted in their defeat and either destruction or assimilation. Where the only, I repeat, the only reason they survived was because Q pulled them out of it at the very last second. (And yes, he also introduced them to the Borg, but that's not really relevant in this argument.)
In that sense the 'defanging' of the Borg already began in BOBW, since in that episode, it was shown they could be defeated by a clever trick of their own devising, even if that trick would work only once. Even if during most of the episode, most of their tricks didn't work or only worked as far as the Borg would allow it, that final one did.
Even that wouldn't necessarily have made it particularly likely they would have met the Borg. Many people (and writers) underestimate how stupidly colossal the galaxy is. There are supposedly around 60,000 stars in a 100 lightyear radius around earth, and that sphere is not even visible (or only just about visible as a dot) to the naked eye without enlargement when superimposed on a picture of the galaxy as a whole. So the 'thousands of systems' Chakotay said were occupied by Borg in Scorpion would scarcely have made even a significant detour necessary -what's another 100 light years on a 70.000 light year journey after all?- unless it was a quite extreme understatement of their actual holdings.
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I disagree.
Here's the thing though, VOY never consistently beat the Borg though.
In general agreed.
But VOY was heavily involved in those events either way.
This two parter actually WORKS right up until Janeway beams into the Queens chambers to rescue Seven.
The Queen had a number of options at her disposal (like putting Janeway behind a forcefield or beaming her out), and the drones seemingly approached her very slowly.
Adding to that the Delta Flyer withstood multiple Borg torpedoes inside TW... though the shutlle WAS equipped with Borg inspired shielding and weapons... add to that 7 of 9 and you can 'maybe' get away with that.
The Queen's diamond being destroyed though is not too far fetched though. VOY collapsed the TW conduit with photon torpedoes. The torpedoes themselves likely did little or no damage to the diamond, but they destabilized the conduit - which in itself would have the potential to destroy the Diamond (and the crew wasn't expecting to destroy the Queens ship anyway).
So, my major beef with the episode is Janeway's rescue of 7 in the Queen's chamber. That whole scene doesn't work at all. Otherwise, other aspects are quite passable.
Not worth mentioning. They were only 5 kids, damaged on top of this (with a damaged cube) and still managed to give the VOY crew excessive difficulties in retrieving the away team... but ultimately, their collective ability was not a real match for VOY. And Borg ship's adaptability seems to be tied to their collective ability and number of drones.
Well, given that by this point VOY received various upgrades... first from the 29th century drone back in season 5, and later on from Starfleet via the data streams from Pathfinder... plus other modifications the crew did during their time in the DQ... it stands to reason the ship would have been able to survive just long enough to deliver the away team... the purpose was never to destroy the tactical cube (which they didn't do)... though, using a tactical cube as a means to deliver the virus was suicidal at best... but at the same time, there were no other Borg ships in range.
Even with the help of the Unimatrix Zero Sphere, both ships were only able to cause fluctuation in the cube's shielding (and the plan was likely not to destroy the Cube, but just to retrieve the away team - causing fluctuation in the Cube's shielding would be enough at least to retrieve the away team and get away from there)... however, the final blow was delivered by the Queen herself who destroyed the Cube (which seemed like an odd decision because she could have just continued firing on the Sphere and VOY and probably destroyed them both... but for narrative purposes, she wanted Janeway dead, and the quickest way to do this was presumably via self-destruct - plus, I imagine the Queen was quite irked at Janeway.
I guess the real question was, why didn't the Queen send more ships to pursue VOY?
Probably because on a galactic scale, this was a relatively minor setback. The Queen still had major numbers, and more advanced tech at her disposal, so, expending resources on finding VOY (who probably masked their signature with assistance of the Sphere) long left the area.
Plus, as we saw, the Queen has moments where she can be quite emotional then doesn't care in the slightest. Overall, she did admit 7 was her 'favourite'... and in a small sense this might be accurate... but overall, 7 likely doesn't even fit with the Queen's plans anymore... but is a potential the queen would have liked to have again... willingly no less.
So, I guess on this premise, the Queen may have decided to allow Voy to continue if an encounter goes in their favour.
VOY never defanged the Borg. TNG and FC have. VOY simply worked with what they were given.
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Just the fact Janeway's plan was to get assimilated on purpose and get that shrugged off before the next episode defangs the Borg in many ways.
Never mind all the other stuff, which just compounds the issue.
How many years of studying Borg tech did the crew have before that point?
About 3... and they had a resident ex Borg who helped devise the neural suppressant, the virus which would have liberated Unimatrix 0 drones, and a whole plan of action to aid them.
VOY has a lot of stuff being done in the bg that simply isn't talked about on-screen.
So, Janeway got herself assimilated yes, but only in the physical sense. Mentally, she remained intact.
Maybe it was reckless of Janeway to do this to herself, but it was established by this point she has a penchant for doing reckless stuff - usually out of sense of personal guilt and not wanting others to suffer for her decisions (which is odd because she's the captain and as such needs to be able to make these decisions... but also Janeway didn't have the benefit of a councilor onboard).
Also, this doesn't defang the Borg. It just means that VOY crew was able to study Borg technology up close and personal (remember the corpse they brought aboard from the 'Cooperative' episode - all the way back from Season 3) and devise much more effective ways of fighting the Borg.
And the damage done to Tuvok by this choice. Worth it?
Hardly. Starfleet still struggled in First Contact with all the Federation's resources,, while a loan ship continually defeats them..
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