How many Enterprise's can there be?

[F. King Daniel]

How much time would they have had for scans anyway. How thorough was the Kelvin or any of its shuttles or escape pods able to be? Starfleet may have known it would have to upgrade but would still have very incomplete information.

Incomplete info would still be a starting point for a new technological direction.

It's like showing someone from 1990 a Blu-Ray player and, a few years later, the best they could come up with to match Blu-Ray was standard DVD because it was too infeasible to leap beyond that or too hard to figure out.

A DVD player in 1990 is still in advance of the era's Betamax or VHS players. The Enterprise was still hopelessly outmatched by Nerada and crippled in one shot.

How was Starfleet supposed to know the Narada was going to be on the move again in 2258?

They didn't. Kirk suspected because of the "lightning storm in space", but Starfleet thought they were assisting Vulcans experiencing some sort of natural disaster.

 

[Timo]

A DVD player in 1990 is still in advance of the era's Betamax or VHS players. The Enterprise was still hopelessly outmatched by Nerada and crippled in one shot.

But the funny thing is, the Kelvin actually fared better, a quarter of a century earlier.

That is, Nero's first missile almost took down the shields: down to about 10% in the Kelvin case, down to about 35% in the Enterprise case. But it seemed that a single torp did this to Pike's ship, while there was a second shot against Robau's. In both cases the ship would apparently have been destroyed had Nero fired one more time. Yet the Kelvin went on to fight Nero for half a dozen more torpedo volleys, having restored her shields to a significant degree, so that the "shields critical" and "shields offline" messages would only flash on after several minutes of protracted struggle. The Enterprise received no more hits and still was unable to restore full warp drive until much later.

None of the evidence truly establishes the Kelvin as the superior survivor. But none of it points to the Enterprise being superior even by a small degree, either.

We don't know whether Starfleet attempted to develop its ships to counter the Narada threat. We do know they failed. And it looks like they scored an epic fail, not managing to improve the survivability of their ships at all. Nothing wrong with that, of course - it should be difficult to reverse-engineer technology you don't even have access to, technology that came from another world in the first place.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lord Garth]

How much time would they have had for scans anyway. How thorough was the Kelvin or any of its shuttles or escape pods able to be? Starfleet may have known it would have to upgrade but would still have very incomplete information.

Incomplete info would still be a starting point for a new technological direction.

It's like showing someone from 1990 a Blu-Ray player and, a few years later, the best they could come up with to match Blu-Ray was standard DVD because it was too infeasible to leap beyond that or too hard to figure out.

A DVD player in 1990 is still in advance of the era's Betamax or VHS players. The Enterprise was still hopelessly outmatched by Nerada and crippled in one shot.

How was Starfleet supposed to know the Narada was going to be on the move again in 2258?

They didn't. Kirk suspected because of the "lightning storm in space", but Starfleet thought they were assisting Vulcans experiencing some sort of natural disaster.

It's very hard to tell if you're trying to counter my points or back them up. Either way, from the looks of it, we seem to agree.

 

[T'Girl]

But the funny thing is, the Kelvin actually fared better, a quarter of a century earlier.

The Kelvin's superiority over the Enterprise, might be less the Kelvin was a superior ship and more she possessed a superior crew.

The Kelvin had a seasoned crew of Starfleet veterans aboard, a sizable portion of the Enterprise's crew were third and forth year cadets. Even commissioned officers like Sulu were shown to be less than knowledgeable about their own panels and duties.

Robau would have replace Sulu, Pike likely had no one to replace him with.

That said, there no indication that the Enterprise or any of the other "modern" Starfleet ships that face Nero in Vulcan orbit were technologically superior in the least from the Kelvin.

 

[Dukhat]

I can't really see Starfleet being motivated to build bigger and badder ships just because they encountered the Narada. When the Narada returns in 2258, nobody seems prepared for her in the slightest. Pike in no way indicates that his new ship has been built specifically to match this enigmatic threat, and indeed the ship doesn't fare any better against that threat than the Kelvin originally did.

While this may be true, it doesn't rule out the possibility that Starfleet, knowing the Narada was a Romulan vessel, mistakenly believed it was a Romulan vessel from their time period. They could have beefed up their fleet over the years, thinking they'd have to be dealing with some new Rommie battleships, only to find that the Romulans of their time had nothing of the sort. Even with a now beefed-up fleet, they'd still be no match for the Narada.

 

[Mr Silver]

While this may be true, it doesn't rule out the possibility that Starfleet, knowing the Narada was a Romulan vessel, mistakenly believed it was a Romulan vessel from their time period. They could have beefed up their fleet over the years, thinking they'd have to be dealing with some new Rommie battleships, only to find that the Romulans of their time had nothing of the sort. Even with a now beefed-up fleet, they'd still be no match for the Narada.

Quoting Scotty "Thats the ticket laddie!"

This is what I was basically getting at, Starfleet through Intelligence Sources (perhaps an alternative "Section 31") gained knowledge of the Narada's Specs, after all its resonable to assume that in this timeline, barring the brief conflict the Kelvin had with Nero, the Federation had never seen the Romulans

And its not just Starfleet...As I suggested earlier its likely most of the major powers of the Alpha Quadrant followed suit and developed their technology to the standard of technology they would have had in the TWOK days, so essentially 40 years more advanced than what they had, still they were no match for the Narada even with these improvements, if we go by the Novelisation and the Comic Series, the Narada has been modified with Borg Technology, a'la The Delta Flyer, making it more formidable than most ships, excluding possibly The Scimitar and The Enterprise-E which had vast amounts of firepower, enhanced shielding and were the pinnacle of late 24th century "Starship Technology"

 

[Lonzo5]

I actually want to diverge from the trends of thinking here and have all of you consider that the timeline was drastically altered at the very dawn of warp flight. We see the effects of this tampering in Enterprise, where they discover the downed Borg ship from First Contact, Archer visits the Ent J, and the Suliban and starfleet itself tamper heavily with the timeline. Perhaps the events after Enterprise explain the larger ships, the forward bridge windows and the fact that the "Archer's arrow" (remember that in TOS and Enterprise, each ship had its own emblem) had already become the insignia for all of starfleet. Perhaps in the true prime timeline (TOS-Voy), Archer and crew didn't stand out much other than being the first NX ship, and the Enterprise only became famous under Kirk, which is why they changed the emblem when they did. Also consider that in ST'09 the Ent and Kelvin crews seemed to know exactly who the Romulans were, what they looked like, and presumably were able to identify their ships via some known code. In TOS, no human had ever seen a Rom, and even Mr. Spock was unaware that they were descended from Vulcans. Who knows: maybe the chief engineer of the Kelvin was co-designer of the Constitution, was killed in action, and his would-be partner, left to his own devices, designed a far more ambitious vessel using the inevitable trickle of 25th century tech that would've been gleaned from sensor data. And as far as sensor data, I would like to think that by the 23rd century every starfleet vessel's readings would be 'in the cloud', so to speak, and accessible via subspace relay to anyone within range who had the correct clearance; in this way, every shuttle that escaped the Kelvin would have an exact copy of the ship's 'black box'. What if starfleet ships returned later and gathered debris samples? Personally I strongly disagree with the drastic change in ship scale, but I have to admit that it seems very feasible that things would be that different.

 

[F. King Daniel]

That doesn't really work. If Enterprise is an alternate universe to TOS/TNG and the rest, how do you explain the finale running concurrently to TNG's "The Pegasus", or Hoshi and Archer reading their service records from the (TOS) USS Defiant's computer in "In a Mirror, Darkly"?

The Kelvin crew didn't know who Romulans were. "Romulan" wasn't mentioned until 25 years later, implying contact in the interim.

The "every ship has a different logo" thing is kind of a myth: We see the TOS arrowhead logo in several episodes on non-Enterprise crewman. Franz Joseph's old Technical manual explained it away by saying the insignia were for different branches of Starfleet, and some fans say they're for different fleets within the Federation.

In Enterprise, Daniels isn't from the future that we see in TOS/TNG/DS9 and VOY. His future still had an expanse in the 26th century and a war with the Sphere Builders.

Also, the events of First Contact are mentioned by Seven in a Voyager episode (can't remember which).

 

[Captrek]

How many Enterprise's can there be?

I dunno, try counting:

 

[T'Girl]

Also, the events of First Contact are mentioned by Seven in a Voyager episode (can't remember which).

The wicked thing is, did Seven originally have that memory prior to the events of FC? Or did that particular

memory suddenly appear in her mind only after the Enterprise E and the Borg sphere traveled through time?

 

[Lonzo5]

That doesn't really work. If Enterprise is an alternate universe to TOS/TNG and the rest, how do you explain the finale running concurrently to TNG's "The Pegasus", or Hoshi and Archer reading their service records from the (TOS) USS Defiant's computer in "In a Mirror, Darkly"?

The Kelvin crew didn't know who Romulans were. "Romulan" wasn't mentioned until 25 years later, implying contact in the interim.

The "every ship has a different logo" thing is kind of a myth: We see the TOS arrowhead logo in several episodes on non-Enterprise crewman. Franz Joseph's old Technical manual explained it away by saying the insignia were for different branches of Starfleet, and some fans say they're for different fleets within the Federation.

In Enterprise, Daniels isn't from the future that we see in TOS/TNG/DS9 and VOY. His future still had an expanse in the 26th century and a war with the Sphere Builders.

Also, the events of First Contact are mentioned by Seven in a Voyager episode (can't remember which).

1. Like I said, maybe they did exist in the prime timeline, but were just horrible actors and did a bunch of things that didn't really make sense. Remember, the JJverse didn't exist in 2367 or whenever the Pegasus incident took place. The split didn't happen until 2387; also, the pre-warp timeline wasn't altered until 2372. This means that as far as the original continuity is concerned, there always had been an NX enterprise. This is confirmed by Archer and Hoshi's exposure to their counterparts' service records. Also, can we please disregard the last episode of Ent as cannon, since it hurts my heart so? My point was that with the subtle alterations to history, perhaps things played out just differently enough to effect major changes in the way later ships were designed.

2. The Kelvin crew had to know of Romulans at least by name, because history was largely the same as in the prime timeline until that point, and the Federation (or at least the UE) had spent its early years at war with them.

3. I agree with you there. Daniels was from an alternate future that was still possible at that point, so instead of being a dimension hopper he was simply a time traveler. After the expanse was disrupted, his future became false.

4. True.

I agree that there are inconsistencies, but that's trek for ya. I do think that the tampering with the timeline before Nero's arrival is the only to explain the drastic changes in design.

 

[Lonzo5]

Oh, forgot about the arrowhead. I've never heard the ship-specific insignia thing called a myth. I'm curious as to where you learned this. I always understood that the starfleet logo at the time was the boomerang you see on 1701's secondary hull, and that each ship had its own symbol for instant identification. Also, I do know that all of starfleet command wore the starburst symbol in TOS, while in Abram's trek you see everyone at the academy wearing arrowheads.

 

[F. King Daniel]

3. Daniels' future stopped being "ours" when the colony was destroyed at the start of "Shockwave". It's even possible we saw several alternate Daniels' thoughout the show, since two of them died Just being nitpicky.
4. Supposedly the timeline is identical prior to 2233, so everything in Enterprise and afterward happened in both timelines. What I meant was that the Kelvin crew didn't recognize Ayel as a Romulan on the screen because nobody had seen one yet. Everyone just stared in shock at the tattooed Vulcanoid. Presumably in the 25 years between that event and the Nerada's return did the Federation and the Romulan Empire have some form of contact (or they just figured out Nerada was Romulan. Maybe the Vulcans told), far prior to Prime-Trek's "Balance of Terror".

4. I say the changes in the Kelvin's design are an update or a retcon. I love TOS, but I can't imagine them using those 60's style sets for a big-budget modern film.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Oh, forgot about the arrowhead. I've never heard the ship-specific insignia thing called a myth. I'm curious as to where you learned this. I always understood that the starfleet logo at the time was the boomerang you see on 1701's secondary hull, and that each ship had its own symbol for instant identification. Also, I do know that all of starfleet command wore the starburst symbol in TOS, while in Abram's trek you see everyone at the academy wearing arrowheads.

The arrowhead in STXI was a retcon - JJ wanted to use the cool, recognizable Trek logo as much as possible. But TOS wasn't very consistant with it's "different logo for each ship" thing - the arrowhead was worn by non-Enterprise personnel in "Court Martial" and in a few others. Franz Joseph explained it away in his 70's Starfleet Technical Manual by saying the logos were for different branches of the fleet, not different ships. The later books went back to the original concept, ignoring the mistakes .

 

[F. King Daniel]

Also, the events of First Contact are mentioned by Seven in a Voyager episode (can't remember which).

The wicked thing is, did Seven originally have that memory prior to the events of FC? Or did that particular

memory suddenly appear in her mind only after the Enterprise E and the Borg sphere traveled through time?

Maybe she knew because of the message the surviving Borg sent at the end of "Regeneration", thus making the whole thing a paradox timeloop thingy, and everything that happened was what was supposed to happen and not actually messing or changing up the timeline at all.

Or whatever .

 

[T'Girl]

I've never heard the ship-specific insignia thing called a myth.

All the personnel in the fleet wore the arrowhead. The people in support branches like the JAG corp (CM) or merchant marines (CX) had a separate insignia. In addition senior officers like Fleet Captains, Commodores and Admirals (plus their immediate staff) had their own insignia.

All the various ship's Captain's in the bar during Court Martial wore the arrowhead, not just Kirk.

Crew of the Defiant had arrowheads (TTW).

 

[Lonzo5]

But every other constitution class ship they encountered had their own logo. Was it just that not all the connies were trailblazers like the 1701? E.g., the Constellation was a patrol ship or something, the Exeter was a science vessel, the Defiant was an escort, and throughout the fleet one could find those same patches on ships' crews with similar missions, although they might not be of the same class?

I always understood this to be the starfleet symbol prior to TMP:
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/_...jpg/180px-Court_martial_starfleet_pennant.jpg

 

[Nerys Myk]

But every other constitution class ship they encountered had their own logo. Was it just that not all the connies were trailblazers like the 1701? E.g., the Constellation was a patrol ship or something, the Exeter was a science vessel, the Defiant was an escort, and throughout the fleet one could find those same patches on ships' crews with similar missions, although they might not be of the same class?

I always understood this to be the starfleet symbol prior to TMP:
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/_...jpg/180px-Court_martial_starfleet_pennant.jpg

Where it is estabished that the Exeter was a science ship the Defiant was an escort or the Constellation was a patrol ship? Weren't they all doing the "exploring strange new worlds thing" when we met them?

I would go with the Constellation being part of a different fleet that the Enterprise and hence the different emblem. Why would all the Connies be in one fleet? And why would there be a differnent emblem for a each mission profile. The Connie were multi-profile ships any way. As TOS shows a Connie could be exploring in one episode and transporting diplomats in the next.

The boomerang pops up now and again. I think even Enterprise used it.

 

[T'Girl]

the Exeter was a science vessel, the Defiant was an escort

The Enterprise, Exeter and Defiant were all the same model of ship (literally). Aboard the Defiant we saw a arrowhead on (two?) dead crewmember's uniforms in Defiant's sickbay.

In the case of the Exeter, Ron Tracy had a different insignia sewn to his uniform shirt, but the Doctor in the log recording had his insignia pinned to his shirt the way a police officer's badge is pinned to his shirt. While you can't actual see the Exeter's crew's insignia's because of the way the shirts are oriented, in fact every one of the shirts used did have an arrowhead sewn on.

I explain it as Tracy being a Fleet Captain and having his own insignia (which he might have personal designed), and the doctor we saw was a part of his personal staff, as opposed to a part of the regular ship's company.

Commodore Wesley had his own insignia, while the crewmember behind him had a arrowhead.

As for the boomerang shape, It could be tied to the United Federation of Planets and be a political pendant of some kind the same way a US Navy ship flys the Stars and Stripes. This would explain why we see it behind senior officers desks and in a court room.

Or while the arrowhead is "Fleet" the 'rang might be "Starfleet" as an over all organization.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I was just reminded reading another thread: The arrowhead logo appeared in Voyager's "Friendship One" as the symbol of the United Earth Space Probe Agency's Friendship-1 probe, waaayyy back in the 2070's.