How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from Voy?

[R. Star]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

"Starfleet was founded to seek out new life... well, there it sits!"

The episode baffles me a bit considering that Tuvix is really just Tuvok and Neelix in one body. I understand the argument that once they melded, they became a new being but isn't it still technically those two? So, it's a new life but at the cost of two individual lives. It's a tough call and Janeway knew that. Look at her face as she's walking away at the end. She's not happy with the decision she felt she had to make.

Tuvix was an accident. No one is to going to deny that. But the accident created a new lifeform, fully sentient and alive in every way. Who is Janeway to play God and decide he should die to save her friends? What she did was morally the equivilent of killing Carey to harvest his organs to save Paris and Kim. Sure that would save two people, but that doesn't make it right to kill Carey against his will. The same applies to Tuvix.

You can argue Tuvix was a coward very convincingly, not to willingly sacrifice himself to save two others. But it's his life, and his choice. No one else's. Even the EMH who was programed with medical ethics refused to perform the procedure against Tuvix's will. Certainly being a coward isn't a capital crime.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

It's specifically spelled out in the episode that Tuvix is a unique being, not just Tuvok and Neelix trapped together in one body.

Like I said before, it would be admirable of Tuvix to sacrifice himself...but that doesn't mean it's alright for Janeway to make that decision.

R. Star, you make a good point about Joe Carey. If Paris and Kim needed multiple organ transplants, it would be one thing for Carey to voluntarily sacrifice himself to save them. It would be quite another for Janeway to kill him against his will.

 

[Gary7]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

JANEWAY: Then you know Tuvok was a man who would gladly give his life to save another. And I believe the same was true of Neelix.
TUVIX: You're right, Captain. That is the Starfleet way. And I know there'll be some people who, who'll call me a coward because I didn't sacrifice myself willingly. Believe me, I've thought of that. But I have the will to live of two men. Look at me, Captain. When I'm happy, I laugh. When I'm sad, I cry. When I stub my toe, I yell out in pain. I'm flesh and blood, and I have the right to live.

One could say this was an unfortunate accident, an unintentional aberration. When mistakes can be corrected, it is generally prudent to do so. The only thing I felt a bit lacking in the episode was the highlighting of the risks. If there was a 99% chance for Tuvix to be successfully reverted back into Tuvok and Neelix, it would make a very compelling case to do the procedure. However, if the success rate was something more like 60%... then one could call into question the merit of risking the life of Tuvix as well.

I like the idea of Picard emphasizing of what would be the "right" thing to do but then give Tuvix the final say... *if* there was a sizable risk of losing him as well. However, if reversion would be 99% guaranteed then one could introduce other arguments as well, such as the need for an independent Tuvok and Neelix because of their invaluable contributions to Voyager in their respective roles (Tuvix is one man, after all) and the fact that they have the right to live as well.

 

[Theodore Jay Miller]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Fact of the matter is, what Janeway did was literally the equivilent of killing someone to harvest their organs to save other lives. I mean there's no way to get around that, she personally killed Tuvix against his will to save her friends. Certainly you can argue that morally Tuvix was a coward for not volunteering, but that's not a capital crime.

I wouldn't say they're equivalent. Tuvix wasn't some alien who wandered by and Janeway killed him to save Tuvok and Neelix. Tuvix only existed because of the loss of Tuvok and Neelix; he was using their bodies/lives/existences to exist. So it seems to me that you can argue that, once a method of restoration was available, that Tuvix didn't have the right to keep Tuvok and Neelix's lives in order to maintain his own life.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

You could argue that, but you'd be wrong. The very fact that Tuvix is alive means he has the right to be alive. He didn't "murder" Tuvok and Neelix since his creation was accidental. To say that he has no right to live is the same as punishing him for the terrible crime of *gasp*...existing. Your argument might have merit if Tuvix was somehow at fault or had intentionally caused the loss of Tuvok and Neelix, but the very nature of his existence means that is not the case.

Think about it this way: if Tuvok and Neelix were going to die without harvesting this random alien's organs, the situation would be the same as Tuvix's for one simple reason. Tuvok and Neelix couldn't survive without the alien's organs, but neither could the alien. So you could "argue" that the alien is selfishly using their death to support his own existence. Tuvix only exists because Tuvok and Neelix are dead? Well, that alien is only alive because he let Tuvok and Neelix die, therefore it's alright to murder him. And that would be a disgusting perversion of both logic and ethics. Saying Tuvix has no "right" to exist (or no right to deny Tuvok and Neelix the chance to live) is the same thing as justifying the murder of that alien.

 

[R. Star]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Fact of the matter is, what Janeway did was literally the equivilent of killing someone to harvest their organs to save other lives. I mean there's no way to get around that, she personally killed Tuvix against his will to save her friends. Certainly you can argue that morally Tuvix was a coward for not volunteering, but that's not a capital crime.

I wouldn't say they're equivalent. Tuvix wasn't some alien who wandered by and Janeway killed him to save Tuvok and Neelix. Tuvix only existed because of the loss of Tuvok and Neelix; he was using their bodies/lives/existences to exist. So it seems to me that you can argue that, once a method of restoration was available, that Tuvix didn't have the right to keep Tuvok and Neelix's lives in order to maintain his own life.

Unless you literally equate Janeway to the supreme dictator or god, who the heck is she to decide who lives and dies? Tuvix didn't kill Neelix and Tuvok. The accident killed them, just as the accident created him. Just because Tuvok and Neelix aren't alive doesn't take the value of Tuvix's life away.

He is a living, sentient being in every sense of the word. The idea that Janeway can just callously decide to kill someone against their will and the crew says nothing is downright scary. That's authoritarian to the extreme.

And arguing that once a method was found he doesn't have the right to "keep" Tuvok and Neelix's lives and is cannon fodder?

So by that logic I can just say that if my brothers were in a car accident need your organs to live, you're the only compatible donor, you don't have the right to keep them? By keeping them you're killing them?

Tuvix didn't "take" Tuvok or Neelix's lives and isn't in any way responsible, just as you wouldn't be in any way responsible in the scenario I just presented. It's your choice, you could willingly donate them and that would be a noble thing, but in a civilized society no one should be able to force you to. The same applies to Tuvix.

 

[Brolan]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

I think you all are missing the point that Neelix and Tuvok are NOT dead. They are co-existing inside Tuvix. In a very real sense Tuvix is keeping two other life forces prisoner just so he can survive. That is what makes it more moral to end his existence and restore the existence of Neelix and Tuvok.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

I cut Janeway some slack, because that was a real tough decision to make.

Even the Doctor refused to back her up and pretty much called it murder.

It seems that if both Tuvok's and Neelix's minds shared the same body, this would be one @@##ed up character because Tuvok couldn't stand Neelix's ways.

I think Tuvix was the result of the transporter's attempt to re-construct a humanoid from an error. Technically, he is an artificial creation then.

I think Picard had so much respect for new life that there was a 60/40 chance he would let Tuvix exist without any interference.

I think if this were TNG, it would have been two lesser known crewmen and at the end they get a shuttle to leave in to 'explore their new life'.

This was post TNG where some answers weren't so easy to come by, so you get serious dilemma that doesn't get solved so easily as far as conscience.

 

[sonak]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

I think you all are missing the point that Neelix and Tuvok are NOT dead. They are co-existing inside Tuvix. In a very real sense Tuvix is keeping two other life forces prisoner just so he can survive. That is what makes it more moral to end his existence and restore the existence of Neelix and Tuvok.

that's not how the episode depicts it. The episode depicts Tuvix as a unique and separate being, and Tuvok and Neelix as basically "gone" until they're resurrected.

The key here is that neither seem to have Tuvix' memories when they're brought back.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Tuvix didn't "take" Tuvok or Neelix's lives ...

But he did "consume" them both, they are both inside him.

 

[BillJ]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Tuvix didn't "take" Tuvok or Neelix's lives ...

But he did "consume" them both, they are both inside him.

Consume makes it sound like he had an active part in his own creation, which he didn't.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

I think you all are missing the point that Neelix and Tuvok are NOT dead. They are co-existing inside Tuvix. In a very real sense Tuvix is keeping two other life forces prisoner just so he can survive. That is what makes it more moral to end his existence and restore the existence of Neelix and Tuvok.

No, because it's not Tuvix's fault. He's not malicious, he's just alive. Murdering him is NOT the right thing to do.

The episode depicts Tuvix as a unique and separate being, and Tuvok and Neelix as basically "gone" until they're resurrected.

Exactly, it's not like they're "fighting from the inside" or being trapped in some kind of limbo. They are "dead", not being held hostage.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Well at least Janeway is somewhat consistant, in that she choose her friends over the law.

 

[Theodore Jay Miller]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Exactly, it's not like they're "fighting from the inside" or being trapped in some kind of limbo. They are "dead", not being held hostage.

But once there's a way to restore them, then I don't think Tuvok and Neelix should be considered dead. Their bodies/minds/molecules have gone to make up Tuvix, but they can be brought back, and I don't see that Tuvix has the right to keep their bodies/minds/molecules, even to preserve his own life.

I'd agree with a basic principle is that you can't take an innocent person's life, even to save someone else's life, but this particular situation makes it ambiguous which way that principle applies. That Janeway can't take Tuvix's life to save Tuvok and Neelix is one way, but the other way would be that Tuvix can't take Tuvok and Neelix's lives to continue his own life. Tuvix didn't intend this situation, but once there is a method of restoration, refusal to undergo it is a deliberate act on his part. Tuvok and Neelix are entitled to their lives, their existences, the things that make them up, and Tuvix is keeping all that from them. I'd defend Tuvix's right to live against anything else, but in this specific case Tuvok and Neelix had rights first. Their lives were lost in an accident and can be returned to them, and I don't think Tuvix has the right to keep those lives.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Perhaps, but didn't they accept the risk that their lifes might be lost in a Transporter accident?

And the end of the day the equation was simple MURDER Tuvix in order to resotre Tuvok and Neelix or let Tuvix live and consider them lost in a transporter accident. One requires a conscious decision the other to allow fate/destiny etc.. to run it's course.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Why is their right to live stronger than his? Because there are two of them? Go back to R. Star's example. If two of his brothers are in a car accident and need organ transplants and you're the only compatible donor...then there is a means of healing them, a means to restore there health. Not volunteering your organs to save their life is a deliberate action. You would deliberately be choosing to view your life as more important than theirs. Does that mean it would be right for R. Star to murder you? Absolutely not. The situation with Tuvix is the same, and all the technobabble in the world won't change that.

The fact that Tuvix is literally using their cells to sustain himself doesn't change things either. Saying he has no right to "take their lives" is by its very nature the same as punishing him for being alive, executing him for something that isn't his fault.

There is no moral ambiguity in this situation. It was absolutely 100% wrong for Janeway to kill Tuvix. Killing Tuvix was murder. He had a right to live, and the circumstances of his creation do not change that.

Once again, Tuvix could have decided to sacrifice himself to save them, and that would have been an admirable thing to do. But Janeway took that decision out of his hands and executed him for the simple crime of living.

 

[Bukiyo]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Say your sister and your brother in law had a baby, then they died in a tragic car accident. You loved your sister and her husband so much that you'd do anything to bring them back. Say you find a magic spell that could split the baby into your sister and her husband, killing the baby in the process, would you do it? Let's say at this point the baby is old enough to know its own existence and is begging you not to kill him/her, would you do it?

That is essentially what Janeway did. Tuvok and Neelix were dead it was sad, but a new life came out of it. He was amicable and charming and got along with the crew.

I think Janeway should have waited to see if there was a way to save all three, and if she was going to kill him anyway then at least download his neural pattern into a stable hologram.

I don't think he was a coward, he forgave them for his murder, I would have gone cursing them all and kicking and screaming.


But back to the topic of the thread, I don't think Picard would have killed Tuvix or any other morph of his crew. He also would have had the benefit of being in Federation space and probably some kind of solution would be found or at the very least the higher ups would have taken it off his hands.

 

[Deckerd]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

There is no moral ambiguity in this situation. It was absolutely 100% wrong for Janeway to kill Tuvix. Killing Tuvix was murder. He had a right to live, and the circumstances of his creation do not change that.

Not 100%. That implies that nothing good could have come from the decision. The crew got their own people back. If she's the only person with the steel to make that decision then so be it.

 

[E-DUB]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Without weighing in on the greater question at hand, I was always annoyed that the issue of whether Tuvok and Neelix had any memories of their joined existance and how they'd deal with that was never addressed. As for the possibility, raised earlier, of Beverly and Deanna merged into a single being, I'll be in my bunk.

 

[marksound]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

If it had happened on TOS, Kirk would have given an emotional speech about responsibility and morality and the right to live--right before he drop-kicked Tuvix and shoved him into the transporter beam.