How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from Voy?
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Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
Seems pretty simple and straight-forward. I can't believe how many people have a hard time grasping it.
Seems pretty simple and straight-forward. I can't believe how many people have a hard time grasping it.
Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
Under that logic Spock wasn't dead at the end of TWOK since he could be retrieved in TSFS.
Under that logic Spock wasn't dead at the end of TWOK since he could be retrieved in TSFS.
Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
Deckerdis correct to say that Tuvok and Neelix did not die. Freeing them is morally correct. Technically speaking, Tuvix did not die, because everything that composed him is still existent.
On the other hand, technically speaking isn't good enough. Separating Tuvix' components also kept him from acting as an integrated person, effectively killing him, which is immoral.
There is no correct solution.
Deckerdis correct to say that Tuvok and Neelix did not die. Freeing them is morally correct. Technically speaking, Tuvix did not die, because everything that composed him is still existent.
On the other hand, technically speaking isn't good enough. Separating Tuvix' components also kept him from acting as an integrated person, effectively killing him, which is immoral.
There is no correct solution.
Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
Isn't argueing legal points... well... pointless? When has there EVER been a case of one person being created by the accidental merging of two other persons, and in order to rescue those two people someone had to kill the newly created person?
Isn't argueing legal points... well... pointless? When has there EVER been a case of one person being created by the accidental merging of two other persons, and in order to rescue those two people someone had to kill the newly created person?
Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
Even in the Federation murder is still established as being an offence.
from memory we had Kodos who killed something like 4000 people in order to save the colony. He onl got away with it because they thought he was dead. When it turns out he was still alive. He would have been in court for those murders, not given a pat on the back with ah well you made the right decsion to kill x to save y. (where y is greater than x)
Even in the Federation murder is still established as being an offence.
from memory we had Kodos who killed something like 4000 people in order to save the colony. He onl got away with it because they thought he was dead. When it turns out he was still alive. He would have been in court for those murders, not given a pat on the back with ah well you made the right decsion to kill x to save y. (where y is greater than x)
Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
I really don't get the people defending Janeway here, as complicated as the issue seems its really not. You have an innocent Sentient being saying flat out "I want to live" which according to everything we have ever seen on Trek Tuvix has every right to and Janeway playing god and saying "To bad". I can't see Picard ever making that decision as a matter of fact I would think Picard would see it as murder.
I really don't get the people defending Janeway here, as complicated as the issue seems its really not. You have an innocent Sentient being saying flat out "I want to live" which according to everything we have ever seen on Trek Tuvix has every right to and Janeway playing god and saying "To bad". I can't see Picard ever making that decision as a matter of fact I would think Picard would see it as murder.
Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
Reached for comment, I dare say that both Tuvok and Neelix would have wanted their internal organs back. The innocent being who is Tuvix was holding inside himself two other innocent being, he was derived from them without their consent or participation. Tuvix was never really an individual, he admitted from the first that he was a composite being. He emerged from the transporter fully formed able to speak and walk and access memories. Tuvix was Frankenstein, an artificial creation, a product of technology.
Tuvix never asked to be Tuvok and Neelix's jailer, but that is what he was.
If two individuals were merged in a "industrial accident," and a Christian separated them again, yes I would say applaud them.
Neither Tuvok or Neevik seemed the least surprised when they materialize in sickbay. This might indicate that they both remember the events of the previous few weeks.
Genesis creates life from lifelessness, Spock was indeed dead.
Starship Captains have been shown to save the lives of their crewmembers, that's really all this was.
Wrong, you have three, not one. All are innocent.
And because at that point in time neither Tuvok, nor Neelix has a voice that can be heard, any right that they have to also "... want to live," is irrelevant? Tuvix somehow holds the priority simply by being the squeaky wheel in the room?
Reached for comment, I dare say that both Tuvok and Neelix would have wanted their internal organs back. The innocent being who is Tuvix was holding inside himself two other innocent being, he was derived from them without their consent or participation. Tuvix was never really an individual, he admitted from the first that he was a composite being. He emerged from the transporter fully formed able to speak and walk and access memories. Tuvix was Frankenstein, an artificial creation, a product of technology.
Picard was repeatedly shown to be a man who believes in justice, under his command ... and by his command ... Tuvok and Neelix would have been released.
Tuvix never asked to be Tuvok and Neelix's jailer, but that is what he was.
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Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
Tuvix gets priority because at that point Tuvok and Neelix effectively no longer exist.
And i've always seen Picard as holding the rights of sentinet beings and freedom of choice above all else. Justice had nothing to do with the issue, and even if did how was murdering Tuvix justice?
If two individuals were merged in a "industrial accident," and a Christian separated them again, yes I would say applaud them.
Neither Tuvok or Neevik seemed the least surprised when they materialize in sickbay. This might indicate that they both remember the events of the previous few weeks.
Genesis creates life from lifelessness, Spock was indeed dead.
Starship Captains have been shown to save the lives of their crewmembers, that's really all this was.
Wrong, you have three, not one. All are innocent.
And because at that point in time neither Tuvok, nor Neelix has a voice that can be heard, any right that they have to also "... want to live," is irrelevant? Tuvix somehow holds the priority simply by being the squeaky wheel in the room?
Reached for comment, I dare say that both Tuvok and Neelix would have wanted their internal organs back. The innocent being who is Tuvix was holding inside himself two other innocent being, he was derived from them without their consent or participation. Tuvix was never really an individual, he admitted from the first that he was a composite being. He emerged from the transporter fully formed able to speak and walk and access memories. Tuvix was Frankenstein, an artificial creation, a product of technology.
Picard was repeatedly shown to be a man who believes in justice, under his command ... and by his command ... Tuvok and Neelix would have been released.
Tuvix never asked to be Tuvok and Neelix's jailer, but that is what he was.
Tuvix gets priority because at that point Tuvok and Neelix effectively no longer exist.
And i've always seen Picard as holding the rights of sentinet beings and freedom of choice above all else. Justice had nothing to do with the issue, and even if did how was murdering Tuvix justice?
Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
If Neelix didn't exist in some fashion, Tuvix would not have presumed a relationship with Kes. The argument is factually false. Tuvok and Neelix were not dead, but trapped and Janeway had the ability and duty to free them.
Tuvix was an integration of two people, meaning he had his own personality. Terminating that personality is equivalent to murder. Janeway did not have the authority to murder Tuvix.
There is no correct solution.
If Neelix didn't exist in some fashion, Tuvix would not have presumed a relationship with Kes. The argument is factually false. Tuvok and Neelix were not dead, but trapped and Janeway had the ability and duty to free them.
Tuvix was an integration of two people, meaning he had his own personality. Terminating that personality is equivalent to murder. Janeway did not have the authority to murder Tuvix.
There is no correct solution.
Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
I think you'll find that quote doesn't belong to me.
Would we class Tuvix as a civillian?
If so aren't starfleet personal supposed to save civillians even at the cost of their own life?
I think you'll find that quote doesn't belong to me.
Would we class Tuvix as a civillian?
If so aren't starfleet personal supposed to save civillians even at the cost of their own life?
Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
Defending Janeway on moral grounds is ridiculous in this case.
Yes, there was a chance to "bring back" Neelix and Tuvok, but they were at that point "technically dead" While the living, sentient being known as Tuvix was there, right in front of her, breathing, begging for his life.
The Doctor was the only one on the ship who made the right decision.
I have to ask the question, would Tuvok and Neelix have wanted Tuvix to be murdered in order to bring them back? Tuvok maybe, but Neelix.... I don't think so.
Chakotay should have ordered her placed under arrest for murder and had her live out her days in the brig.
Atrocious handling of the plot by the writers, there's no easy solution in that situation.
Defending Janeway on moral grounds is ridiculous in this case.
Yes, there was a chance to "bring back" Neelix and Tuvok, but they were at that point "technically dead" While the living, sentient being known as Tuvix was there, right in front of her, breathing, begging for his life.
The Doctor was the only one on the ship who made the right decision.
I have to ask the question, would Tuvok and Neelix have wanted Tuvix to be murdered in order to bring them back? Tuvok maybe, but Neelix.... I don't think so.
Chakotay should have ordered her placed under arrest for murder and had her live out her days in the brig.
Atrocious handling of the plot by the writers, there's no easy solution in that situation.
Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
I think the really deplorable thing was not containing Tuvix and putting him in stasis. He shouldn't have been allowed to continue like that and fulfill a crew position. The justification? They had no idea how long the molecular cohesion would last or if he might break down with a serious illness or ailment due to the "guess work" of the transporter algorithms whipping him up. You suspend him and then do research to figure out exactly what happened and how it can be reversed.
By allowing Tuvix to roam free, he starts to form his own unique memories and have an effect on the crew. It wasn't right to do this.
No, they were not destroyed. They were "reconstituted." If destroyed, then they couldn't be brought back, simple as that. Therefore, they weren't technically "DEAD", just living in a reformulated physical existence. Otherwise, it's like saying that someone stored in a transporter buffer is dead.
I think the really deplorable thing was not containing Tuvix and putting him in stasis. He shouldn't have been allowed to continue like that and fulfill a crew position. The justification? They had no idea how long the molecular cohesion would last or if he might break down with a serious illness or ailment due to the "guess work" of the transporter algorithms whipping him up. You suspend him and then do research to figure out exactly what happened and how it can be reversed.
By allowing Tuvix to roam free, he starts to form his own unique memories and have an effect on the crew. It wasn't right to do this.
Exactly. Janeway was speaking on behalf of Tuvok and Neelix. Two voices against one, and the one looses. Again, what it really all hinges on here is how successful the procedure was expected to be. From what the EMH said, it sounded like it wasn't very risky, which I think removes the last barrier to having it done.
Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
What happens to Tuvok and Neelix if the transporter hadn't created Tuvix?
I think another argument for them being dead is this:
Where did the additional mass of the two go when Tuvix was created? Where did the additional mass come from when splitting them back into individual forms?
What happens to Tuvok and Neelix if the transporter hadn't created Tuvix?
I think another argument for them being dead is this:
Where did the additional mass of the two go when Tuvix was created? Where did the additional mass come from when splitting them back into individual forms?
Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
1. Again, "two beats one" is not a serious argument for an ethical position of this kind. I don't know why people in this thread keep bringing it up, it's just silly.
2. It's presumptuous to claim that Janeway was "speaking on behalf" of Tuvok or Neelix. As another poster mentioned, it wasn't a simple question of "do they wish to be restored?" because then it would be yes. It's a question of "would they want to be restored by having another being murdered?" I'm not convinced that they'd both say yes to that, and we never find out.
3. While my belief is that there is no right answer here, the better ethical arguments are on the side of Tuvix' right to choose.
1. Again, "two beats one" is not a serious argument for an ethical position of this kind. I don't know why people in this thread keep bringing it up, it's just silly.
2. It's presumptuous to claim that Janeway was "speaking on behalf" of Tuvok or Neelix. As another poster mentioned, it wasn't a simple question of "do they wish to be restored?" because then it would be yes. It's a question of "would they want to be restored by having another being murdered?" I'm not convinced that they'd both say yes to that, and we never find out.
3. While my belief is that there is no right answer here, the better ethical arguments are on the side of Tuvix' right to choose.
Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
A few pages back, Deckerd, you said that the phrase "100% wrong" implies that no good could come of the action in question. I respectfully disagree. The consequences of this action do not make it more or less wrong. A course of action can be morally bankrupt, sadistic, violent, and downright evil and still have some good consequences. But good consequences don't mean it was a good thing to do in the first place. Think about the phrase, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Sometimes, adversity makes a person stronger and they come out of it as a better person. That doesn't mean the bad situation was actually a good situation, does it?
A few pages back, Deckerd, you said that the phrase "100% wrong" implies that no good could come of the action in question. I respectfully disagree. The consequences of this action do not make it more or less wrong. A course of action can be morally bankrupt, sadistic, violent, and downright evil and still have some good consequences. But good consequences don't mean it was a good thing to do in the first place. Think about the phrase, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Sometimes, adversity makes a person stronger and they come out of it as a better person. That doesn't mean the bad situation was actually a good situation, does it?
Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
Perhaps, but it still beats "Tuvix was the only one talking."
Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from
Thank you. I choose to recognize that there are two sides, but also that one side is a little more heavily weighted, that being two people's lives at stake versus one.
I won't continue to address the rest of the rebuttal to my points when someone here persists on a valid argument being "silly". It isn't. And I won't debate with someone who falls back on petty barb throwing in an attempt to assert a superior position.
Thank you. I choose to recognize that there are two sides, but also that one side is a little more heavily weighted, that being two people's lives at stake versus one.
I won't continue to address the rest of the rebuttal to my points when someone here persists on a valid argument being "silly". It isn't. And I won't debate with someone who falls back on petty barb throwing in an attempt to assert a superior position.
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