How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from Voy?

[Gary7]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

There is no moral ambiguity in this situation. It was absolutely 100% wrong for Janeway to kill Tuvix. Killing Tuvix was murder. He had a right to live, and the circumstances of his creation do not change that.

Not 100%. That implies that nothing good could have come from the decision. The crew got their own people back. If she's the only person with the steel to make that decision then so be it.

I agree with Deckerd. The situation didn't illustrate a remote chance of recovery. The doctor stated that "it will require a more detailed reprogramming of the transporter, but, yes, I believe we can restore Mister Tuvok and Mister Neelix." He didn't indicate the level of risk, so it sounds to me like it was minimal.

With this accident being feasibly reversible, it makes sense to do it. Tuvix should never have existed in the first place. Reversal restores what once was. Now, if there was a significant risk involved and Tuvix may end up dying without anybody saved, it would have been a much more difficult scenario to solve. In my mind, I think it would have to be left up to Tuvix, and as we all know he'd choose to live.

 

[stj]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

There is no right decision. The episode was written to put Janeway in an impossible place. Tuvix continued existence was at the expense of Neelix and Tuvok, not his own separate existence after the deaths of the other two. This is specifically showed by the way Tuvix attempted to move in on Kes.

The equivalent for Picard would have been if O'Brien and Geordi had merged, to form Keltix, say, then Keltix had tried to say he was still married to Keiko.

I don't think there would have been any interest in putting Picard in a place where he could not possibly be right.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Any court in the Federation would have found Janeway's actions unlawful. She was emotionally invested in the outcome. If a judge has some form of realtionship with the accused they should recuse themselves, If a Juror knows the defendant they have to excuse themselves.

In no way did Tuvix get a fair hearing.

If Tuvix was created deliberatly by someone a strogner argument could be made to restore Tuvok and Neelix. But it was an accident.

Lets say you are sitting as Judge, you have a being that was created in accident. Do you murder them to restore Tuvok and Neelix or accept that sometimes people die in accidents and let him live?

 

[Dream]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

I don't think there would have been any interest in putting Picard in a place where he could not possibly be right.

I, Borg?

That episode actually did a pretty good job showing Picard struggle with such a big decision.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

The fact that they weren't fighting to get out shows Tuvix was an artificial construct, created by the transporter to try and correct a mistake.

If Tuvok's normal consciousness was there, he definitely would have fought-he could barely stand Neelix at times.

The computer probably nipped and tucked certain parts of their memories to create this guy. Which makes him...artificial.

This is probably what helped make Janeway's final decision, since she has a strong scientific background.

This concept has happened a lot in Trek, from TOS down to Voyager, and usually the outcome is the same-- good or bad, the aliens have to leave because it won't work out.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

But froma Legal point of view it was it murder.

Tuvix had committed no crime.

As a rule we don't punish innocent people.

 

[Deckerd]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

I'm fairly sure we don't execute people who have commited a crime.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

^Well that's only partially true, some parts of the world still have the death penalty.

Though even then it tends to be reserved for things like murder.

 

[BillJ]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

The computer probably nipped and tucked certain parts of their memories to create this guy. Which makes him...artificial.

I thought he retained the memories of both Tuvok and Neelix? I'd rewatch the episode, but it sucks quite frankly and I have better things to do with forty-five minutes.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

The computer probably nipped and tucked certain parts of their memories to create this guy. Which makes him...artificial.

I thought he retained the memories of both Tuvok and Neelix? I'd rewatch the episode, but it sucks quite frankly and I have better things to do with forty-five minutes.

I remember Tuvix saying he had the memories of both men.

But it seems to me that the computer mixed their thought patterns so the result is a totally different thinking person, and more artificial in nature.

If you look at Tukix's uniform you can see how creative the computer got.

If he had both memories, in their entirety, I think Tuvix would be a basket case.

Tukov was extremely annoyed with Neelix. Tuvoc in particular would have definitely wanted his body back.

 

[BillJ]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Tukov was extremely annoyed with Neelix. Tuvoc in particular would have definitely wanted his body back.

He gives up that right the moment the transporter beam begins to disassemble him.

The closest analogy I can come up with would be two parents facing imminent death and harvesting the organs from their offspring to survive at the cost of the offsprings life.

How Tuvix was created really shouldn't factor into the equation, once he materialized on the transporter pad he was a unique individual. With the same rights as anyone else. Do twins or triplets that come about because of medical technology have less rights than those formed through natural means?

 

[Brolan]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Tukov was extremely annoyed with Neelix. Tuvoc in particular would have definitely wanted his body back.

He gives up that right the moment the transporter beam begins to disassemble him.

The closest analogy I can come up with would be two parents facing imminent death and harvesting the organs from their offspring to survive at the cost of the offsprings life.

How Tuvix was created really shouldn't factor into the equation, once he materialized on the transporter pad he was a unique individual. With the same rights as anyone else. Do twins or triplets that come about because of medical technology have less rights than those formed through natural means?

I'm just having trouble understanding why the two individuals that existed before the accident have less rights than the one. After all it's 2 vs. 1 AND they were both there first. That makes it a slam dunk.

 

[BillJ]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

I'm just having trouble understanding why the two individuals that existed before the accident have less rights than the one. After all it's 2 vs. 1 AND they were both there first. That makes it a slam dunk.

Because they were destroyed in the process of transporting, therefore they died. If the transporter doesn't merge the two, then they materialize as corpses or puddles of goo like in TMP.

Are we free to destroy those whose creation doesn't sync with our own interpretation of how life is formed? Would we applaud a Christian who destroyed someone who was formed by artificial means?

It's not often where I find the actions of a Trek captain deplorable, but the actions of Janeway in "Tuvix" is just that. She murdered someone because she simply couldn't let go of her friends.

 

[sonak]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Tukov was extremely annoyed with Neelix. Tuvoc in particular would have definitely wanted his body back.

He gives up that right the moment the transporter beam begins to disassemble him.

The closest analogy I can come up with would be two parents facing imminent death and harvesting the organs from their offspring to survive at the cost of the offsprings life.

How Tuvix was created really shouldn't factor into the equation, once he materialized on the transporter pad he was a unique individual. With the same rights as anyone else. Do twins or triplets that come about because of medical technology have less rights than those formed through natural means?

I'm just having trouble understanding why the two individuals that existed before the accident have less rights than the one. After all it's 2 vs. 1 AND they were both there first. That makes it a slam dunk.

Are you really reducing ethics to arithmetic and "who was there first?"

By that logic, it would be alright to kill to harvest organs as long as it saved more, as others have pointed out.

 

[MacLeod]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Last I checked people die in accidents all of the time. Tuvok and possible Neelix should have known there is risk (doesn't matter how small) that the Transporter could fail and they could die. The fact that the malfunction created a new life doesn't negate that acceptance of the risk.

 

[Deckerd]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Except they didn't die. If there had been no way to retrieve them then they wold be effectively dead. But there was.

 

[Infern0]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

I think Picard would have let Tuvix decide for himself, he wouldn't have murdered him.

Shouldn't Janeway be in prison?

 

[MacLeod]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Yes but the cost to retrieve them was to MURDER an innocnet living sentient being.

Hasn't murder been more or less abolished from the Federation legal books (Don't recall General Order 7 being violated)

 

[Deckerd]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

Would not doing anything about it be tantamount to murder too?

 

[MacLeod]

Re: How do you think Picard would've handled the Tuvix situation from

No because their lose could be attributed to a transporter accident. People die in accidents all the time.