How did TMP get a G rating?

[CorporalCaptain]

What message do you think I'm talking about

You suggested "It's a missed opportunity that nothing in the film suggests that any such resonance is actually intentional", so I'm seeking clarification as to what you meant.

more importantly, what in the film intentionally conveys this message?

Surely the director's choices intentionally convey a film's messages.

Let's make sure we are on the same page, OK? Could you please paraphrase what it is that I said in my first post that the film fails to convey a connection between, which I called a missed opportunity.

Then, could you please point to me where the film makes that connection explicit? You already assured me the connection was intentionally made in the film; please show me where.

 

[Christopher]

^He didn't say the connection was made explicit in the film. He said there were resonances and that they weren't there by accident. Something can be implicit yet still intentional. It's called subtext.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

^He didn't say the connection was made explicit in the film. He said there were resonances and that they weren't there by accident. Something can be implicit yet still intentional. It's called subtext.

Is there anything that can back up this subtext? Commentary? Interviews? Anything?

 

[Christopher]

Is there anything that can back up this subtext? Commentary? Interviews? Anything?

Huh? You were the one who brought up the thematic resonance between the transporter accident and the whole V'Ger thing in the first place. So you're already fully aware of the subtext. The only question, then, is whether it was intended by the filmmakers or a result of your own interpretation. Subtext can be either or both. Sometimes it can be consciously inserted by the filmmakers, and sometimes it can be more unconscious but still reflecting the general ideas and goals they have in mind.

 

[Therin of Andor]

^Thanks Christopher.

Is there anything that can back up this subtext? Commentary? Interviews? Anything?

Well, I didn't invent it in my head. As I mentioned, interviews with, and about, Wise's directing of TMP published in 1979 and 1980, I guess. Almost any issue of "Starlog" in the year leading up to the premiere.

I fear we ain't getting anywhere. Forget I ever asked you to clarify your earlier post. Obviously, I did not understand it.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Is there anything that can back up this subtext? Commentary? Interviews? Anything?

Huh? You were the one who brought up the thematic resonance between the transporter accident and the whole V'Ger thing in the first place. So you're already fully aware of the subtext. The only question, then, is whether it was intended by the filmmakers or a result of your own interpretation. Subtext can be either or both. Sometimes it can be consciously inserted by the filmmakers, and sometimes it can be more unconscious but still reflecting the general ideas and goals they have in mind.

Right, sorry, I meant, of course, is there anything that can back up whether it was intentional, which is what this whole little side bar has been about.

Vague references to an interview about how Wise says that space travel is dangerous isn't what I'm looking for, or enough to convince me that the filmmakers were conscious of the subtext. Certainly, there was no evidence in the film that they were conscious of it, none that I could see. I simply said, in the beginning, that I found the lack of evidence that it was intentional to be, essentially, unfortunate.

 

[Christopher]

Does it really matter, though? Even if a creator isn't consciously, actively thinking "I want to insert this theme/subtext," it can still be a part of their underlying way of thinking about the project and its concepts. I've seen it said that often, a writer discovers the theme of a work after it's written. If it's too self-conscious and planned, that isn't necessarily a good thing, because that can make it contrived or forced.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Does it really matter, though? Even if a creator isn't consciously, actively thinking "I want to insert this theme/subtext," it can still be a part of their underlying way of thinking about the project and its concepts. I've seen it said that often, a writer discovers the theme of a work after it's written. If it's too self-conscious and planned, that isn't necessarily a good thing, because that can make it contrived or forced.

It's not bad if it wasn't in the film.

What I really meant is that I think it's a good thing to think about. I brought it up because I thought it was an interesting connection.

The main reason I think it was missed in the film is because in the Star Trek universe, ultimately the transporter is safe when operating as intended. McCoy's concerns about having his molecules scrambled are treated as an eccentricity, and the fact that TMP treats them that way is really my exhibit A that the film missed the connection between the transporter and V'Ger.

 

[t_smitts]

Well, to be fair, we didn't see the results of that transporter accident...but that "shriek"! BRRRRR!!!!! I don't know how they did it, but something about that sound worked its way to the fear centers of my reptilian "hind brain" to TOTALLY freak me out! Even today as I'm nearing my 50th birthday, I will mute the sound when it reaches that moment in the film. Strange as this may read, I find that "scream" far more unnerving than the chest bursting sequence in "Alien"!

That sound for me warrants an "R" rating!



Sincerely,

Bill

Indeed! That awful shriek and distorted face was far more gruesome that anything else I can remember in Star Trek, let a lone a g movie. This bothered me when i rented this film as a child on VHS at maybe 12 years old, and it has also frightened, well maybe not frightened but at least made me very uncomfortable. I think its because the people are aware in transport and being put back together in a horribly wrong way. The line "Enterprise what got back didn't live long fortuinetly.." gave me a mental image of those melted looking people shimmering back on the spacedock transporter pad being re-assembled all mismatched and inside out; ; melted twisted faced locked in a emotional state of suprise, confusion, and horror as to what exactly was happening to them as they were gasping for air, which possibly could have been impossible in that state. Being put back together wrong at the molecular level It seems a worse death than just being lost in transport.

The sound along with the image in my own mind, even thought it appears nowhere on screen, still it appears, is very scary indeed!

It's interesting that I should see this, because I was just reading Memory's Alpha's article about the late Commander Sonak, who perished in that accident. It was mentioned in the TMP novelization that the transporter accident actually inverted the bodies of Sonak and Admiral Lori Ciana, so that their internal organs were actually outside of their bodies when they rematerialized at Starfleet Headquarters. Not exactly the view I'd want to have were I working the transporter console that day.

While I wouldn't go so far as to say I can't watch it today, I say this much; As kid of proabably eleven first watching this, I have three recollections:

While not being frightened to the point of tears, nightmares, bedwetting, turning the movie off, or even averting my eyes, I remember being unsettled by that distorted scream, to the point of being relieved when the unfortunate pair vanished from the pad and it finally stopped. (In retrospect I wouldn't dare imagine what it must've been like for that guy at the other end who says "fortunately").

My other two recollections were 1) really liking Ilia in that skimpy bathrobe and being a bit disappointed at her disappearing at the end, and 2) "My God, these ship shots go on forever! Get on with it, already!!!"

Actually, in the intervening years, I wasn't entirely sure which of them that distorted scream belonged to. There's something eerie about the idea of a stoic Vulcan being driven to scream like that. (I know it was the female victim now).

As a side note, I prefer Robert Wise's assumption that the female victim was the ship's original navigator, rather than some admiral that Kirk was screwing. The crew's surprised reaction to Ilia's arrival (especially Decker) makes far more sense if she was a last-minute replacement.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The crew's surprised reaction to Ilia's arrival (especially Decker) makes far more sense if she was a last-minute replacement.

Except she'd already, presumably, been to Dr Chapel some time earlier - pre-flight medical assessments? - because Ilia "once mentioned" the significance of her Deltan headband.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The crew's surprised reaction to Ilia's arrival (especially Decker) makes far more sense if she was a last-minute replacement.

Except she'd already, presumably, been to Dr Chapel some time earlier - pre-flight medical assessments? - because Ilia "once mentioned" the significance of her Deltan headband.

From http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie1.html:

UHURA (OC): Transporter system fully repaired and functioning normally, sir.
SULU: Dock signals clear, Captain.
KIRK: Reply we are holding position awaiting final crew replacements.
UHURA: Aye sir. Transporter personnel reports the Navigator Lieutenant ...Ilia. She's already aboard, and en route to the bridge, sir. She's Deltan, sir.
ILIA: Lieutenant Ilia reporting for duty, sir.
KIRK: Welcome aboard, Lieutenant.

Sounds like Ilia is a last minute crew replacement who goes directly from the transporter room to the bridge, to me. I agree, it's plausible that she's replacing the female killed with Commander Sonak. As for when Christine heard Ilia mention wearing her headband?

CHAPEL (on viewscreen): I remember Lieutenant Ilia once mentioning that she wore this.

There's plenty of opportunity for Ilia and Chapel to talk off screen, such as right after the wormhole, when she's on her way somewhere in the corridor and crosses paths with Decker. However, I must say that "I remember [her] once mentioning" sounds like they've talked quite a bit over an extended period of time. That would kinda suggest that they've served together before the film starts. But when and where? Not on the Enterprise. Kirk doesn't seem to know her, and Decker hasn't seen her since he was on Delta IV. Perhaps Chapel wasn't continuously on the Enterprise after Kirk left.

 

[Christopher]

Ilia was last-minute, but that doesn't necessarily make her a replacement for someone else. After all, the Enterprise was rushed into service to intercept the "intruder." It wasn't supposed to be launched for days, even weeks, and that would've just been for a shakedown, not active service. So they didn't necessarily have the full crew complement already assigned and ready to go. They were scrambling to pull together enough personnel to let them launch in 12 hours. It's not unreasonable that some of the posts weren't filled until late in the game.

 

[Maurice]

The crew's surprised reaction to Ilia's arrival (especially Decker) makes far more sense if she was a last-minute replacement.

Except she'd already, presumably, been to Dr Chapel some time earlier - pre-flight medical assessments? - because Ilia "once mentioned" the significance of her Deltan headband.

Which doesn't jive with Decker's apparent surprise at her coming aboard.

 

[Admiral_Sisko]

Ilia was last-minute, but that doesn't necessarily make her a replacement for someone else. After all, the Enterprise was rushed into service to intercept the "intruder." It wasn't supposed to be launched for days, even weeks, and that would've just been for a shakedown, not active service. So they didn't necessarily have the full crew complement already assigned and ready to go. They were scrambling to pull together enough personnel to let them launch in 12 hours. It's not unreasonable that some of the posts weren't filled until late in the game.

Agreed. And as Decker- who handpicked most of the crew himself- didn't seem to know that Ilia would be serving aboard Enterprise, it's possible that Kirk selected her name from a list of available navigators before he left Starfleet Headquarters, knowing that someone would need to fill the position. Come to think of it, it's not entirely clear who Decker's first-officer would have been had he remained in command of the Enterprise. Sulu would seem to be the most obvious choice, but it's possible that he had someone else in mind altogether.

Sonak was wearing commander's rank stripes on his uniform, but based on his dialogue with Kirk, it seemed as though he had only recently been posted to the Enterprise- and given that Decker intended for him to complete his mission briefing before even boarding the ship, it's not clear how well they knew each other or if they had even spoken face-to-face.

It's not clear who the female officer was supposed to be. Various novels suggest that she was Admiral Lori Ciana, a former love interest of Kirk's who had been involved in his initial promotion to admiral and acceptance of a position at Starfleet. A photograph of the transporter accident (minus the effects) was included in a 1980 calendar, and clearly depicts a woman not wearing an admiral's uniform.

 

[Admiral_Sisko]

The crew's surprised reaction to Ilia's arrival (especially Decker) makes far more sense if she was a last-minute replacement.

Except she'd already, presumably, been to Dr Chapel some time earlier - pre-flight medical assessments? - because Ilia "once mentioned" the significance of her Deltan headband.

Which doesn't jive with Decker's apparent surprise at her coming aboard.

Agreed. As I said in my previous post, I get the impression that Kirk may have chosen her name from a list of available navigators before leaving Earth, as he didn't have much time before the Enterprise was to depart.

 

[Harvey]

I found this which goes through some of the differences between the BBFC (Uk) and MPAA (U) rating bodies.

http://www.sbbfc.co.uk/mpaacomparison

Thanks for posting that; I'll have to read through it when I have some time.

 

[Therin of Andor]

A photograph of the transporter accident (minus the effects) was included in a 1980 calendar, and clearly depicts a woman not wearing an admiral's uniform.

And Roddenberry's novelization covers that by specifically stating that Vice Admiral Ciana took a vacant berth as a regular crewmember to get aboard.

But Roddenberry was also writing the novelization long after the transporter accident scene had been filmed. The script itself certainly never specified that the woman was connected to Kirk, although the character was essentially another holdover from "Phase II", in which she was called Alexandra Keys.

 

[Maurice]

I don't recall this Alexandra Keys in any of the Phase II material I've seen. Where was she supposed to be?

 

[Therin of Andor]

I don't recall this Alexandra Keys in any of the Phase II material I've seen. Where was she supposed to be?

In the opening Kirk scene of "In Thy Image", he is swimming naked with a woman he has been in a relationship with.

 

[22 Stars]

The crew's surprised reaction to Ilia's arrival (especially Decker) makes far more sense if she was a last-minute replacement.

Except she'd already, presumably, been to Dr Chapel some time earlier - pre-flight medical assessments? - because Ilia "once mentioned" the significance of her Deltan headband.

Which doesn't jive with Decker's apparent surprise at her coming aboard.

I am really enjoying this thread, but is it 'jive' or gibe?