How could they have made this a better show?

[ClayHefner]

They could have done the Federation thing without planets allying against the Romulans after overcoming their mistrust and so on.
In fact, wasn't it implied that it was a Human-Romulan war specifically?
In my opinion, the building of a multi-world alliance should already be on its way, with the Vulcans leading that effort (and having their own secret agenda). Why should the humans not aim for something like that the moment they met the Vulcans? Lots of ploitical scheming behind the scenes would have been MUCH better than aliens, who act like spoiled children half of the time, shaking hands after they stop the evil Romulan drone ship.

In the century before ENT, they have met several races, but they never tried to forge any economic or miltary partnerships?
ENT kinda implied that's because the Vulcans somehow didn't allow that OR the future humans don't care, which could only make sense with a thought-out, tight explanation how that went. Which ENT did not provide.

Maybe it would still have been like B5, but no one would have cared.
If ENT had been a better show they could have had Lightsabers and Wookies and no one would have complained. DS9 made Boushh the Bounty Hunter into a race and no one cared because it was cool.

 

[Anwar]

That's the thing, TOS' Human-centric views just don't hold up anymore. It was made clear that humanity was the least powerful of the Fed Founders and had been in space the shortest, so how were they to have overcome the Romulan Empire all on their own when the Romulans' should've been the stronger ones? How did the Federation get formed if the other races weren't involved in the least and it was just some minor war involving the backwards humans and some other equally weak guys?

In the century before ENT, they would've been too busy putting Earth back together and overcoming any human factions against a United Earth or overcoming anti-Alien/Anti-Vulcan xenophobes. They woudn't have made it into space as a real power until the 2080s or 2090s. Trek canon states they didn't even really colonize Mars until 2103.

That's why if you want to chronicle what humanity's first independent voyages into space were like and their first meetings with the Andorians and stuff, it should be in the 2120s or 2110s even. LONG before the Romulan War.

By the time of the war all the contacts and stuff would've happened a LONG time earlier with the Federation already on its way and the Romulan War being the final catalyst. Boring.

And DS9 gets away with the Breen looking like Star Wars characters because of the double standard.

 

[ClayHefner]

That's the thing, TOS' Human-centric views just don't hold up anymore. It was made clear that humanity was the least powerful of the Fed Founders and had been in space the shortest, so how were they to have overcome the Romulan Empire all on their own when the Romulans' should've been the stronger ones?

How can we be sure? When we meet the Romulans on ENT, they are the same powerful Empire we saw on TNG and DS9 and TOS, with sinister dudes plotting sinister stuff in high spires. That was probably because they thought they could not waste time on showing dfferent Romulans when they are not supposed to be seen by anybody (or because the dumb viewers wouldn't get it).
But we also know that the Romulans did not have an easy unification, that they were a bunch of thugs which the Warp drive made into an Empire. This could have happened at that very time.
It's true the look of the Romulans could not be revealed to everybody, but we the viewers could have seen them. One character could have seen them and remained silent. The Romulans could be much weaker, more aggressive, different. We could have been introduced to Romulus very shortly after the pilot. Personally, I would have liked T'Pol to be a Romulan agent.

How did the Federation get formed if the other races weren't involved in the least and it was just some minor war involving the backwards humans and some other equally weak guys?

agreed. The humans as the driving force behind everything is lame.

That's why if you want to chronicle what humanity's first independent voyages into space were like and their first meetings with the Andorians and stuff, it should be in the 2120s or 2110s even. LONG before the Romulan War.

Yeah.

And DS9 gets away with the Breen looking like Star Wars characters because of the double standard.

Don't forget DS9 has been critizised alot during the early seasons. In seasons 1-3 they wouldn't have gotten away with it so easily imo.
If they had copied B5 in ENT, it would have been seen as a wise choice.

 

[Anwar]

That line about how Warp Drive made the Romulan Thugs into an Empire never made any sense, so I have to rationalize that they were just thugs on Vulcan until they used Warp Drive to leave and become an Empire. So in any case they'd still be tough guys by the time of the war.

The Romulans should've been introduced in the 2120s or so as just another one of the Empires' on the block who just came off as antisocial for never communicating visually with others or always sending Remans Emissaries. A bunch who were private and kept to themselves.

Then we find out that they are the ones pretty much behind all major terrorism in the Pre-Fed Trekverse, most galactic incidents are their doing, they supply weapons to both sides in conflicts to keep wars going and destabilize the area, etc. The Suliban and such would be slave races who serve the Romulans (since the Romulans were based on Romans, they can have more than one slave species doing stuff for them).

Course, this would be mostly revealed to the viewers and not the Humans and other aliens. The series could end with the first steps of the Federation taking place, and someone notes that something big could come of it in a few decades. With some background stuff about how the Romulans are becoming more hostile to others lately, foreshadowing the war.

 

[ClayHefner]

That line about how Warp Drive made the Romulan Thugs into an Empire never made any sense, so I have to rationalize that they were just thugs on Vulcan until they used Warp Drive to leave and become an Empire. So in any case they'd still be tough guys by the time of the war.

I mean ths could be interpreted as some planet of many warring nations driven to unification by some ambitious warlords. Just saying they could (and maybe should) have introduced the Romulans, even in 2120. Show their first steps into the unknown and where their isolationism stems from.
It wouldn't be really necessary so long before the war for sure. But there you have this iconic Trek race, about to play a major role, largely unexplored in Trek. They might as well have taken advantage of that. They could be scheming around long before the actual big war with the humans (maybe covered in another prequel series).

The Romulans should've been introduced in the 2120s or so as just another one of the Empires' on the block who just came off as antisocial for never communicating visually with others or always sending Remans Emissaries. A bunch who were private and kept to themselves.

or that

Then we find out that they are the ones pretty much behind all major terrorism in the Pre-Fed Trekverse, most galactic incidents are their doing, they supply weapons to both sides in conflicts to keep wars going and destabilize the area, etc. The Suliban and such would be slave races who serve the Romulans (since the Romulans were based on Romans, they can have more than one slave species doing stuff for them).

If you showed the Romulans in an earlier stage, already scheming and trying to gather information, but still too weak to even think about a major strike, this could be much more interesting than the Romulans already pulling all the strings and preparing for major conflict.

Course, this would be mostly revealed to the viewers and not the Humans and other aliens. The series could end with the first steps of the Federation taking place, and someone notes that something big could come of it in a few decades. With some background stuff about how the Romulans are becoming more hostile to others lately, foreshadowing the war.

would work

 

[Anwar]

Well, why don't we combine those ideas? The Romulans see how the Vulcans are pretty much the major superpower in the Pre-Fed era, despite fighting with the Andorians repeatedly over the centuries and decide that since they can't match them in raw power they need to destabilize them and play them off one another if they are ever going to have their chance at galactic conquest.

So they are background manipulators and give off an antisocial and quiet public face to keep anyone from seeing they are related to the Vulcans, and so that everyone else will be weakened to the point the Romulans COULD invade and conquer after they've destroyed themselves through a series of wars.

 

[ClayHefner]

I'd watch that.
The Romulans would surely find out that the Vulcans are related to them. And if their way of life had brought them into a situation not unlike the one before Surak, the Vulcan philosophies could sure threaten their new empire

 

[Anwar]

Actually, I think the Romulans would've known all along they were related to the Vulcans and that if they simple re-assumed contact it would just be a repeat of their prior banishment via interstellar war.

 

[CaptJimboJones]

I never thought it was a bad show to begin with - from Broken Bow I liked the characters more than any Trek show since TOS. The main problem in the first two season was very uneven writing - some episodes were great, plenty were mediocre, some were horrible.

IMO they "fixed" the problems with the writing in Season 3, and continued strongly through the end of Season 4. No, it wasn't perfect, but I enjoyed the hell out of those last two seasons.

So I really wouldn't change much, other than a general sense of increasing the caliber of the writing in seasons one and two. The premise, the ship, the tech, the characters, all of it worked fine for me. When the storylines were compelling - which probably didn't happen enough in the first two seasons, but occurred more often than not in the second half of the show - I thought it all worked wonderfully.

 

[Withers]

I can't... exemplify in any one idea how this show could have been better. I haven't seen it as often as I've seen everything else (Voyager included.) Here's what I will say:

One of my problems with Enterprise was the feeling that new things were being introduced at the expense of expounding on things established in other incarnations. Let me elaborate; The Suliban and the Xindi. These two villains represented completely new races that, until Enterprise, hadn't been seen before. Why? Where did they go? Why go with new species rather than elaborate on the early conditions between humanity and the species we know?

Well, I can almost answer my own question. They did. They did with the Klingons, the Vulcans and to some extent, the Romulans (among others.) My problem there, especially in the case of the Vulcans, was that I didn't buy it. My "vision" of Vulcan came from the TOS era movies. That was run over with a dump truck by the way they presented Vulcan in Enterprise. Did I mind? No. But I think they could've done a better job of it. Same goes for the Klingons, not so much as in they changed my view of them, but I think a better job could've been done. Same for the Romulans. Shran was the one shinning exception to all of that. The exploration of Andoria was done flawlessly in my opinion.

So, they introduced new villains, an act which I didn't care for and they explored the opening relationships between humanity and other known races in a fashion I didn't feel comfortable with. They should've done both of those things better. How? I don't know exactly but I know it could've been done.

I really liked the Xindi arc. I thought it accomplished what Voyager tried so hard to do and didn't. However, like Voyager, I think it suffered from poor character development. They just couldn't seem to get that right after DS9.

Finally, there's the portrayal of humanity. In Enterprise you'd think Earth had no such thing as diplomacy. You'd think the very notion of it was a foreign concept to us the way, say, charity might be to a Ferengi. I understand they wanted Archer to be more like Kirk than the other Captains had been. Still, I find the idea that the Vulcans spent 100 years trying to "civilize" humanity...insulting. We've had to deal with one another on this planet for a long time. Shouldn't that give us some chops when it comes to deal with other species? The history of humanities own diplomatic accomplishments were kind of brushed off and the whole species seemed like a bunch of cowboys.

Anyway, I don't think Enterprise was a bad show. I enjoyed it more than I did the earlier seasons of DS9 and all of Voyager. I wish they would've given it the full seven seasons as pretty much all of the other series didn't get going until around season 4 anyway (a Trek curse- imagine if the other shows had only gone on 4 seasons.)

-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

TOS is full of aliens we only ever see once and then never again, there's nothing wrong with ENT doing the same. After all, the Federation is composed of over 100 alien species and we hardly see any of them.

As for the Vulcans, they are closer to the original portrayal of Spock and the Vulcans in early TOS. Those guys were jerks, and so was Spock.

 

[Withers]

TOS is full of aliens we only ever see once and then never again, there's nothing wrong with ENT doing the same

The difference is that TOS came first and Enterprise came last. What're the odds that such a huge thing as the Temporal Cold War/Suliban and Xindi attack on Earth/Xindi happens and then is never mentioned and the species never heard from again? What on TOS has such major implications and then isn't even mentioned again?

As for the Vulcans, they are closer to the original portrayal of Spock and the Vulcans in early TOS.

Well, within the TOS movies, Vulcan itself was portrayed as a sort of "dusty" world with "Roman/Monk-like" inhabitants. The Vulcan on Enterprise looked advanced with people (especially the leaders) seeming less spiritual and more... corporate. I agree- Spock was kind of a jerk but it wasn't only the portrayal of Vulcan and Vulcans but how humans interacted with and were subsequently treated by them that combined for something that made a little uneasy about it.


-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

V'Ger nearly destroyed Earth, never mentioned again. Genesis Project created a planet, never mentioned again. Whale Probe and its origins, never explored nor mentioned again. The Organians stopping the Fed/Klingon War and never mentioned again. Kirk hardly referenced at all in TNG. Android civilization discovered in TOS, never mentioned in TNG.

That's just a sample. If all that can happen and never be mentioned again, then the Suliban and the TCW (which hardly anyone knew about in the first place) and the Xindi attack can also be just stuff that wasn't mentioned later because there was no point in referencing them.

In the TOS movies, we only see Vulcan twice: One when Spock was undergoing an ancient Kohlinar ceremony and later when a bunch of Vulcan mystics are doing an ancient mind meld ceremony. Because there were moments of ancient ceremony and not everyday life, we can't use them as evidence of what Vulcan civilization is generally like.

 

[Withers]

V'Ger nearly destroyed Earth, never mentioned again.

Not making reference to The Motion Picture is almost like not making reference to Star Trek V- it's a credit more than a deduction.

Genesis Project created a planet, never mentioned again.

It didn't create a planet. It terraformed one... which later exploded. And it is referenced again. Janeway references it in Voyager. Hardly a point though as it wasn't really a big deal to the Federation as far as its history goes- only to the saga of Kirk.

Whale Probe and its origins, never explored nor mentioned again.

Except that every Federation ship has the equivalent of Whale Tanks somewhere on board. They make mention of having them more than once on TNG. That the probe never comes back is, again, a credit based on the fact that the idea is kind of stupid.

The Organians stopping the Fed/Klingon War and never mentioned again.

Mentioning a war that didn't happen would be pretty difficult if you think about it. The Xindi attack on Earth and Enterprise subsequent mission in the Delphic expanse did happen, along with Archer's involvement in the TCW. Those things happened. Your example is of a war that was halted.

Kirk hardly referenced at all in TNG.

McCoy and Scotty both actually show up. Kirk himself not being referenced is likely due to the fact that they were trying to separate TNG from TOS. Not to mention the fact I think, at the time, everybody was pretty clear on the fact that James Kirk was a legendary captain.

Android civilization discovered in TOS, never mentioned in TNG.

I'll give on that one but still... TOS came from a different era of television and Enterprise did not. They obviously took Star Trek in a different direction with the later three series but then seemingly ignored three of them in certain instances to make Enterprise. To make the show better I wouldn't have done that.

then the Suliban and the TCW (which hardly anyone knew about in the first place) and the Xindi attack can also be just stuff that wasn't mentioned later because there was no point in referencing them.

That's not even the problem. It isn't that the events of Enterprise are never referenced in the previous shows (I mean... clearly there's a reason for that) it's that the species disappear altogether by the time of Kirk's Enterprise.

In the TOS movies, we only see Vulcan twice: One when Spock was undergoing an ancient Kohlinar ceremony and later when a bunch of Vulcan mystics are doing an ancient mind meld ceremony. Because there were moments of ancient ceremony and not everyday life, we can't use them as evidence of what Vulcan civilization is generally like.

That's fair enough. I'll give on that one. I still didn't care for what they did to characterize typical Vulcan life. I would've kept their general society more "spiritual" and less... aggressive.

-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

Hey, TMP is one of my favorite Trek movies!

Like I said, there was lots of TOS aliens that disappeared by TNG's time. ENT's aliens not being around is not biggie given the precedence for that happening in Trek. And the Federation is supposed to be a lot bigger than what we see. They aren't gone, they're just somewhere else that we don't along with the 100 or so other aliens supposedly it the Federation.

Anyways, there was a one-line mention of a "Xindi Starbase" in one episode of TNG...

 

[Withers]

I think this argument speaks to the core of wheather or not they should have made a prequel after 4 series and a whole host of movies in the first place because this sort of retcon is seldom popular. It works in comic books. It's harder to swallow on screen.

I hardly think the Xindi/Suliban thing detracted from the show. Those are my favorite episodes of Enterprise in fact. That it took them inventing new villains to make the show interesting speaks to the fact that maybe doing a prequel show wasn't such a great idea.


-Withers-​

 

[DevilEyes]

In the TOS movies, we only see Vulcan twice: One when Spock was undergoing an ancient Kohlinar ceremony and later when a bunch of Vulcan mystics are doing an ancient mind meld ceremony. Because there were moments of ancient ceremony and not everyday life, we can't use them as evidence of what Vulcan civilization is generally like.

That's fair enough. I'll give on that one. I still didn't care for what they did to characterize typical Vulcan life. I would've kept their general society more "spiritual" and less... aggressive.

-Withers-​

The Vulcan trilogy in season 4 explained that (and managed to successfully deal with continuity errors in the previous seasons - and by that I mean, continuity within ENT itself, not just with the other series - regarding mind-melds, for instance). Or were you not satisfied with the story? Yeah, I am sure that it was the season 4 writing staff retconning things to make it all make sense, but it was well done.

 

[Withers]

That stuff was pretty good I have to admit. I liked it because it was in keeping with the "spiritual" Vulcan we'd seen before. I wasn't alright with the way they portrayed or...described, rather, the 100 years of Vulcans as "big brother" and the tie in that had with the earlier seasons of Enterprise. It just didn't come off as reasonable to me. I know there are a billion legitimate reasons for why it was presented the way it was. I just didn't care for it.



-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

Well, it was made clear that the Vulcans were an Elder species and more advanced than Humanity. Why NOT make them the "Big Brothers"? I mean, it wouldn't be logical to just leave a violent species with the capacity for reason to just do their own thing now that they were warp-capable and so close to Vulcan.

 

[Withers]

Well, it was made clear that the Vulcans were an Elder species and more advanced than Humanity. Why NOT make them the "Big Brothers"? I mean, it wouldn't be logical to just leave a violent species with the capacity for reason to just do their own thing now that they were warp-capable and so close to Vulcan.

I meant Big Brother in the 1984 sense of the term... not as in an older sibling. And when they tried to pull that crap what happened in the Mirror Universe seems far more likely. I mean they come in talking a big game and we just... roll over for them? By the Enterprise depiction of humanity we're either blood thirsty cowboys who are fundamentally unable to grasp the notion of diplomacy that wouldn't accept 100 years of Vulcan "monitoring" or we're passive/diplomatic enough to accept Vulcan help but in that case wouldn't need it.

-Withers-​