I like pandering.
How could they have made this a better show?
- Thread starter ReadyAndWilling
- Start date
I like pandering.
Me too.
As for improvements
- Have it set closer in time to First Contact. Cochrane should still be around. We should witness humanity evolving, show the problems that still exist.
- Explain the world as the 22nd humans know it. What are the known races (preferrably few)? What are humanity's outposts etc.
This could be done with a "Little Archer" flashback.
- More Vulcan. They should have visited Vulcan in the beginning. Use it to explain their society and culture, their motives right in the beginning.
- Less space battles. Or use fighters.
- Warp tech is still complicated, takes a while to fire up, is not super-reliable etc.
- No transporters
- bullets, no rayguns
- Get rid of Phlox or make him more alien
- MACOs from the start.
- More professional crew. It's inconceivable Earth would send some bunch of unexperienced newbies into the unknown, no diplomats, trained soldiers, a first contact protocol. It's dumb.
- no time travel. At all.
- 50s retro look (great idea)
- no klingons. At all. (they need a break). No other "Warrior races"
.- traditional intro with Archer saying the space: the final frontier lines, no song
As for improvements
- Have it set closer in time to First Contact. Cochrane should still be around. We should witness humanity evolving, show the problems that still exist.
- Explain the world as the 22nd humans know it. What are the known races (preferrably few)? What are humanity's outposts etc.
This could be done with a "Little Archer" flashback.
- More Vulcan. They should have visited Vulcan in the beginning. Use it to explain their society and culture, their motives right in the beginning.
- Less space battles. Or use fighters.
- Warp tech is still complicated, takes a while to fire up, is not super-reliable etc.
- No transporters
- bullets, no rayguns
- Get rid of Phlox or make him more alien
- MACOs from the start.
- More professional crew. It's inconceivable Earth would send some bunch of unexperienced newbies into the unknown, no diplomats, trained soldiers, a first contact protocol. It's dumb.
- no time travel. At all.
- 50s retro look (great idea)
- no klingons. At all. (they need a break). No other "Warrior races"
.- traditional intro with Archer saying the space: the final frontier lines, no song
I think the time period they chose, the 2150s, was perfect. It was a great idea to flesh out the founding of the Federation. They should have focused much more on this storyline from the beginning.
I like the idea of less alien races. They should have focused on ones the audience was already familiar with. Season Four proved they could make good stories without relying on the tired old "Alien of the Week" theme.
You can't go wrong with more visits to Vulcan! I would add that they should have visited Andoria regularly as well. At least a few visits to Tellar would have been awesome.I'll have to disagree with that one. Star Trek without space battles isn't Star Trek IMO.
I can see the logic behind this, but I also think it wouldn't quite work. If the show was set earlier maybe. But by the 2150s, humanity had 90 years to make the new warp tech reliable.
They should have done what they did with the transporter with the weapons as well. Show that the characters still prefer a good old bullet-use gun. They only slowly come to accept the phase pistols, like they do with the transporter.
I personally love Phlox. However, it would have better, IMO, to have him be from a perviously established race. Maybe a Tellarite?
I don't think it's dumb. I think the whole point of the show was to show that they were all completely unprepared for what faced them and had to learn on the job, especially Archer. Though, I will admit the writers showed this in a truly pathetic and haphazard way.
Time travel has NO place in a prequel series.I don't know. I prefer just to suspend disbelief and believe the technology in TOS and early TNG was always as advanced, or more so, than what we see in ENT (even though it obviously isn't from a production point of view).
They should have been introduced much later than the very first episode. Maybe bring them in halfway through the series.
I was actually thinking the Enterprise crew would just stick with the EM-33 they used in "Broken Bow" and never upgrade to the phase pistol (leave beam weapons to the Vulcans). And they wouldn't have a stun setting, so if they wanted to take someone alive, they would need to aim much more carefully.
Why not? Humans are more than capable of such feats given fifty or sixty years' time to clean their act up and get out there. It's similar to how far we've progressed in only sixty years since the largest, deadliest, and most destructive conflict in human history. If you took someone from 1945 and brought him forward to 2010, he wouldn't believe how far we've come.
The way I envisioned the Trek version of the Kzinti Wars was that they were like the Punic Wars. Earth, like Rome, was beginning to expand out into the stars, and the Kzinti, like Carthage, got in their way. The two sides clashed over territory, and Earth managed to come out on top and established itself as a planet on the rise. This serves three purposes. First, it does away with the ridiculous notion that humanity goes from only just getting its first deep space explorer out there to leaders of the Federation in less than ten years. Second, it gives humans a much more interesting background than "we were held back by the Vulcans." Third, it would make the Delphic Expanse arc even more personal to the characters because humans have an actual connection to the Kzinti.
The Vulcans and Andorians probably never clashed with them because they never had reason to. The Romulans and Klingons probably never clashed with them because they had the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, Orions, etc., between them and the Kzinti.
I also thought it would be neat to use a race that's already appeared in Star Trek (via TAS) rather than another Disappearing Alien that nobody ever talks about ever again beyond the 2150s. And they were going to use the Kzinti in ENT Season 5 anyway, so I figured, "Why not?"
Plus "Xindi" sounds a lot like "Kzinti" anyway.
Plus "Xindi" sounds a lot like "Kzinti" anyway.
Haha! Good point.
You know, reading this thread and more I think about it, Enterprise for all it's flaws... it has aged considerably well, considering. TOS screams 60s... TNG screams 80s... ENT... well, to me it doesn't really seem locked into it's own production era that much. But that's just one aspect of it.
Once the first season kinks were ironed out (and T'Pol's dreadful hair) the show did what it was supposed to do.
Loved the huge portions of action, phaser fights and space battles... not so much Captain Archer getting beat up in captivity again and again and again... but that's something the writers managed to fix up.
But the Kzinti's characteristic is that they are just this warmongering empire that attacks and conquers everything in its' path. They would've been the ones to attack the humans, not vice-versa. And if they did, then it makes zero sense they never ran into the Vulcans or Andorians first and gotten their asses kicked by them.
I can see why they used a new race: It allowed them complete control over them, their characteristics and all without being constrained in the least by what anyone had done before.
And I still say set the show earlier than the 2150s, that's way too late for the humans to just be entering the galactic stage. The show should've been in the 2110s or 2120s. After 30 years I can see the humans becoming powerful enough to be a Fed founder, but not 10.
I can see why they used a new race: It allowed them complete control over them, their characteristics and all without being constrained in the least by what anyone had done before.
And I still say set the show earlier than the 2150s, that's way too late for the humans to just be entering the galactic stage. The show should've been in the 2110s or 2120s. After 30 years I can see the humans becoming powerful enough to be a Fed founder, but not 10.
I agree. Season 1 of ENT was OK. It was season 2 that was bad, apart from a few good episodes, and more importantly, the show lost direction, it was too safe, with too many rehashed stories and a lack of universe building that was started in season 1.
Season 3 was excellent, it wasn't any weaker than season 4. People just tend to prefer season 4 because of the subject matter - it felt more like a prequel than any of the previous 3 seasons.
The problem is easily solved: mute button.
I totally disagree. Phlox was one of the best characters on the show, there isn't anything I'd change about him, except give him more screentime.
Bad idea. Should then the 21 st century flashbacks be seen as a silent movie and 20th century as cave paintings? (see the previous pages of the thread)
If you're making an art project, it could be a good idea, but if you're making an SF show that you want people to watch on TV, you should want to make the suspense of disbelief easier, not more difficult for the viewers.
Frankly, I don't know if I like the idea. It's a bit too old and over-used. I wouldn't mind if they used a pop song, in fact I applaud them for trying to do it differently - as long as the song was, you know, any good.
Yes, John Billingsley with a pig face would have been so much better... Hmm... no, not really.
What's up with everyone's obsession with the previously established races? The Federation is supposed to be comprised of some 180 worlds or so (don't shoot me if I can't remember how many exactly or if I got the number wrong), how many of them have we actually seen or heard about in TOS, TNG and DS9? And then you have to take into account that many of the alien races in the later shows weren't known in the 22nd century.
Besides, the Tellarites weren't even considered important before ENT made them one of the founders of the Federation in season 3. And Phlox as a Tellarite wouldn't fit with the role that Tellarites had on ENT. Why would one of them be a doctor on an Earth ship? And if they were on such close terms with the Humans, why would Humans be acceptable as a third party in Andorian/Tellarite negotiations?
I love the show! But even perfection can be improved upon...
My main gripe is the Temporal Cold War. A hackneyed plot if there ever was one. And I couldn't stand Daniels for some reason.
A decent character arc for more of the bridge officers, particularly Hoshi, Mayweather and Reed (I love the idea of him as a 31 spy).
Cut the Xindi arc in half if you want to keep it, one entire season bar an ep or two is too much. In addition, make Storm Front the season finale. Having the last image of the third season an alien in Nazi uniform surely put off a lot of viewers. It certainly got me so mad I refused to watch the 4th season until I'd calmed down a week or so later. Yet, SF was a great story and definitely worth watching.
Vulcan robes for T'Pol, at least some of the time. In the 4th season she could have a standard Starfleet uniform. They could still do the shower scenes etc. for ratings...
Don't shoot me, but I actually like the Enterprise theme song. However, I don't think it's the best possible theme. I love the dark Mirror theme, a more upbeat version of it could've been used for the rest of the show.
I agree that more first contact situations should have been shown...
My main gripe is the Temporal Cold War. A hackneyed plot if there ever was one. And I couldn't stand Daniels for some reason.
A decent character arc for more of the bridge officers, particularly Hoshi, Mayweather and Reed (I love the idea of him as a 31 spy).
Cut the Xindi arc in half if you want to keep it, one entire season bar an ep or two is too much. In addition, make Storm Front the season finale. Having the last image of the third season an alien in Nazi uniform surely put off a lot of viewers. It certainly got me so mad I refused to watch the 4th season until I'd calmed down a week or so later. Yet, SF was a great story and definitely worth watching.
Vulcan robes for T'Pol, at least some of the time. In the 4th season she could have a standard Starfleet uniform. They could still do the shower scenes etc. for ratings...
Don't shoot me, but I actually like the Enterprise theme song. However, I don't think it's the best possible theme. I love the dark Mirror theme, a more upbeat version of it could've been used for the rest of the show.
I agree that more first contact situations should have been shown...
^ I'd remove Storm Front entirely. I liked the Xindi arc so I don't see a reason to cut it, although there were a few fillers in the first part of the season. I agree with the rest: no TCW; more development for all the characters - they should have made it a real ensemble show like DS9 instead of trying to focus on the 'big 3'; introduce Reed's Section 31 connection earlier and make more of it; give better and more convincing clothes for T'Pol (that ridiculous catsuit in season 1 and 2 didn't even look good).
Spinelessly pandering...?!
I had to jump in here, and say - what?! Here's a newsflash - this is a television show, its supposed to 'pander' to its audience! We aren't just some 'fortunate souls' who are 'privileged' enough to view these god-made programs. Television shows are supposed to entertain their audience.
Manny Coto came in saved B&B's asses, but it was too little, too late. If actually delivering on the original premise of the show (for a change) is what you call a 'continuity porno' then obviously we have a very different view of things.
I, for one, appreciated Coto giving us a prequel to TOS, rather than TNG Mark III, masquerading as a prequel. And I watched Enterprise on DVD after the show had been cancelled, so there was no 'publicity effect' to 'get me back in'.
Pfft, anything is better than season of TNG. You'll get no argument from us.
Though I agree about the theme song, seriously, its not a big deal. I too wish people would stop acting as if a crappy theme song is a reason not to like or watch a TV show - crappy writing and the same old stories we've seen hundreds of times before are real reasons not to like a TV show.
I agree with all of your points wholeheartedly Wolfishly!
At least Seven had more of a reason to wear catsuits (though I think there are outfits which are sexier and more tasteful than catsuits!), why would a Vulcan?
I also completely agree with your points Admiral Shran. Especially MORE Vulcan and Andor, and Tellar - we know literally next to nothing about the Tellarites, except that they're pig-like people who like to argue... This wouldn't be an issue, except that Enterprise itself established Tellar as a founding Federation member!
And Phlox was great (cause he actually had something resembling a personality and character development...) but I agree, a known race would have worked just as well!
Well, IMO at least, our 'obsession' is due to the fact that Enterprise is supposed to be a prequel series. To me, at least, that implies that we're going to see how Humans got from First Contact WW3-era to TOS and a founding member of the Federation.
That means (again, imo) that we should see the races which were established in TOS and (maaaybe) to some extent TNG - but I can agree that Bolians and Betazoids, as well as Ferengi and Borg and Cardassians, should not show up (if only B&B agreed).
Prequel doesn't really imply 'alien of the week' to me, if we're going to see Humans exploring pre-Federation, then they should be discovering future Federation member worlds, and future enemies (or neutral races, like Orions). They should be learning about those races and slowly forming alliances or grudges which could then believably evolve into the relationships shown in TOS.
Instead, the Vulcans knew about pretty much everyone. The Klingon Empire could have been as mysterious as the Dominion was at the start of DS9 - this vast destructive power which conquers worlds and thus slowly expands its own borders. Maybe Enterprise could have skirted the edges of Klingon space, there might have been a few skirmishes - but visiting Qo'noS in a couple of days, in the pilot?!
The Xindi could have been the Romulans - they were supposed to have a war with Earth, weren't they? Replace Xindi weapon with Romulan weapon, remove the Sphere Builders, have Enterprise launch a nuke at Romulus and there we go, Xindi replaced in a way that fits known canon.
I completely agree!
Using an established race for a "Dominion" like mystery role wouldn't work, because WE would already know the truth and would just be annoyed at the show for trying to make them all mysterious when we already know everything.
THAT was why they used the Xindi, because there was an ACTUAL mystery for the audience.
It's the same reason the Romulan War wouldn't work either, too much depended on them not knowing anything about the Romulans even though we already know all there is to know about them. Trying to make an artificial mystery is just annoying.
I thought a prequel was a bad idea from the start, and all this talk about using the Romulans and stuff is just reinforcing that belief.
As for "pandering" to the audience, all that does is give us stuff like Heroes season 3.
THAT was why they used the Xindi, because there was an ACTUAL mystery for the audience.
It's the same reason the Romulan War wouldn't work either, too much depended on them not knowing anything about the Romulans even though we already know all there is to know about them. Trying to make an artificial mystery is just annoying.
I thought a prequel was a bad idea from the start, and all this talk about using the Romulans and stuff is just reinforcing that belief.
As for "pandering" to the audience, all that does is give us stuff like Heroes season 3.
But Federation has way more worlds and races than those that were shown in TOS and TNG, why would we only see those? Especially when you take out all those that were only encountered in TOS or TNG. And the planets that Earth ships would be likely to encounter in the 22nd century must have been those closer to Earth. They could have featured a few more races that were mentioned in TOS, but I don't think it would have made much of a difference, since in TOS we rarely got to see an alien race that didn't look 100% human (due to budgetary constraints). Was there any episode other than Journey to Babel where we actually got to see Federation races, other than Vulcans, that actually looked alien?
I agree that it would have been great to have seen the Romulan War. If the first two seasons had been different and seasons 2 or 3 had featured a setup for the war, they could have had the Romulan war as early as season 4. But that was not possible after the way the show had gone for its first couple of seasons. With the lack of direction of the show in the first couple of seasons, especially season 2, they obviously needed something like the Xindi arc to revitalize the show, and it couldn't have been the Romulan war because it hadn't been set up properly. You couldn't have a start of the war and then go back to the Augments and Klingons and Orions and whatnot. The Romulan war would have been very different from the Xindi arc, they couldn't have been any mystery to the enemy and their motivations, and it wouldn't have been over in a season. And it would have been too big to ignore, so if they had started the war, the rest of the show would have to be all about the war. (I also wonder if that could have worked at all, on the budget they had.)
I don't literally mean you can see the strings on the models and little flames coming out of the boosters : /
I can't bring myself to watch season 4 again because of the awful mirror universe rubbish. That and the ending which was an abomination. I can't remember any of the other stories since I only watched it once years ago.
Yeah. It's also good to have at least 50-60 years between first contact and ENT, to have colonies from an early settlement period existing for at least two generations. It's strange that they chose that time when they did not have much interest in doing much with Romulans NOR in dealing with the time between FC and ENT (except that terrible Terra Nova ep).
I still don't get why they didn't even show one regular Andorian city in the entire series (preferrably the "capital")
I just wish they'd shown the "big starships" as less maneuverable, having to rely on fightercraft to defend them. But they were doing barrel rolls already in the pilot.
They could still have ship-to ship battles, but they would either be like in Star Wars or like in Star Trek II- "naval" style.
I mean like the coils would need maintenance after extended periods of max Warp, they would need to refuel more often, Warp jumps would take some time and precaution etc. It would limit the writers, but also give them the opportunity of coming up with less conventional plot devices.
Yeah
Tellarite would have been great. Or why not a Saurian or one of those TMP Bird dudes? I just wish he'd be more alien-looking. A buttcrack on your forehead is not alien.
Yeah. I mean most of the crew could still be inexperienced, but they could have backed that up with a few specialists (and create tension in the process...hooray).
They obviously met a number of races before ENT. And there were never any problems? No scientists making suggestions for first contact procedures? Don't SETI and the whitehouse have protocols for those eventualities even today?Maybe the crew should stop showing Frankenstein and show ID4 or the Body Snatchers to make clear what's at stake.
No politicians urging for the inclusion of a diplomat into the crew? Admiral whatshisname was a joke in that regard too.
I mean it's cute idea that Archer can somehow manage this on his own just because he's awesome,being alone on the final frontier and all.
But it's somewhat unrealistic. Earth ploticians would want this opportunity of traveling into the unknown without help to yield the best results for Earth, and this was not the way to do it. Not as a starfleet ship.
And there's a big problem of ENT's right there. Braga obviously thought it was a staple of Trek and it had to be there right in the pilot.
No it's all Braga's fault. EVRYTHING!!!
Agreed, another alien with an odd forehead got really boring, really fast, seeing as how almost every alien in Star Trek is just a Human with a differently shaped forehead.
But that would require B&B to actually want the aliens to look, you know, alien. From what I understand, it took a massive amount of convincing for Berman to allow Andorians to be re-introduced.
* Actually PLAN the Temporal Cold War. Everything I've read says B&B really didn't have anything planned out. They just would throw an episode together with future guy with no real vision of what was really going on in mind. If they had things actually planed out, they could have throw bits and pieces here and there the didn't seem like much at the time but would come to light later. Kind of like "Bad Wolf" or "Vote Saxon".
* The renaming of the same old gadgets and calling them "new" needs to go. Did they really think that was going to work? I was so fooled!
* Along the same lines... all the tech (renamed) that we all know and love just happens to come out during the crew's mission. Oh look the first "phase cannons". Oh look, the first "photonic torpedoes". Oh look the new "transporters" have just been approved! Oh look, we have these experimental "shield" thingys we can try.
* No Borg.
* More Shatner
While I've read B&B were getting pressure from the suits as to what the show needed to be and what needed to be in it, B&B had run out of gas (or perhaps needed to push back harder)". They wanted something new and fresh, but by the second episode they were slipping back into Voyager-land.
* The renaming of the same old gadgets and calling them "new" needs to go. Did they really think that was going to work? I was so fooled!
* Along the same lines... all the tech (renamed) that we all know and love just happens to come out during the crew's mission. Oh look the first "phase cannons". Oh look, the first "photonic torpedoes". Oh look the new "transporters" have just been approved! Oh look, we have these experimental "shield" thingys we can try.
* No Borg.
* More Shatner
While I've read B&B were getting pressure from the suits as to what the show needed to be and what needed to be in it, B&B had run out of gas (or perhaps needed to push back harder)". They wanted something new and fresh, but by the second episode they were slipping back into Voyager-land.
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